--- Log opened Mon Jul 18 00:00:37 2011
00:25 < tryagain> http://trac.navit-project.org/attachment/ticket/859/ updated
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06:48 <@Horwitz> morgen
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09:15 < Number6> Morning
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12:00 < sebastian-w> cp15: what about the fix of the disappeared roads?
12:11 < jouke> I'm sorry to ask you guys, but does anyone know of an opensource program that routes on garmin-maps?
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12:15 < korrosa> Hi jouke - where did you get the Garmin maps from? Did you pay for them?
12:22 < drlizau> well let's assume that jouke built garmin map with mkgmap
12:23 < korrosa> If that is the case, then Navit is ideal - don't bother with the Garmin map at all.
12:26 < jouke> korrosa: I'm making my own maps with mkgmap
12:27 < jouke> But navit doesn't route
12:28 < korrosa> jouke: What's the source of the maps that you're converting? OpenStreetMap?
12:28 < jouke> yes
12:28 < jouke> But I have styled the map to work on my garmin oregon.
12:28 < korrosa> You know you can use OpenStreetMap maps in Navit, right? As in, you don't need to convert them to Garmin maps, and as an added bonus you can route using them!
12:28 < jouke> euh, styled the map for a specific purpose on my oregon.
12:29 < korrosa> And you can mimik whatever style you like, as map rendering is completely customisable in Navit.
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12:30 < jouke> For example: highways 5km/h, dirtroads 110km/h
12:30 < jouke> dirtroads bright green
12:30 < korrosa> Yes, yes, yes - you can do all that in Navit.
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12:30 < jouke> yes, but that would require a lot of work :P
12:30 < jouke> Ah well, migh just as well have a look at it.
12:31 < korrosa> Lazy bugger!
12:31 < korrosa> For dirtroads bright green - look in the layout
12:31 < korrosa> For custom speed limits - look in the vehicleprofile.
12:31 < jouke> :( Just spend hours and hours to make the map accessible on a website and on my garmin.
12:32 < korrosa> jouke: I also have an oregon - I presume you've optimised for some sort of ATV or mountain bike? Care to share the link?
12:32 < jouke> Dirtbikes
12:33 < jouke> currently it's only for belgium, the netherlands and luxembourgh.
12:34 < jouke> www.allroadmap.nl
12:34 < korrosa> Benelux represent!
12:34 < jouke> and the garmin-map is on http://data.allroadmap.nl/8jul2011.exe
12:35 < jouke> installs directly in mapsource
12:37 < korrosa> Ah, I see - looks very neat!
12:37 < korrosa> And extremely easy to copy for Navit.
12:37 < jouke> For mapping purposes I would like to use my laptop.
12:38 < korrosa> I'm the idiot who created the Mapnik layout copy for Navit http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Layout/mapnik
12:38 < korrosa> So I can help with this if you need.
12:41 < jouke> Ok, I'll have a look.
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13:06 < tryagain> cp15 At http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/859#comment:20 I posted a patch to do case- and accent- insensitive search for POI lists.
13:07 < tryagain> To use that on portable devices i'd need to import into our glib copy unicode tables which are quite big.
13:09 < tryagain> Also current patch uses two unicode table lookups per char, which may become too slow for small devices.
13:11 < tryagain> So I think it's better to adopt gen-unicode-tables.pl from glib to build a table to remove both case and accents from a given unicode char. That will save both memory and CPU on the device.
13:14 < tryagain> Is it a good idea to have a helper perl script in our source tree to build a .c source file which then will be compiled into navit?
13:30 < korrosa> Oh man - just adding a new patch doesn't appear in the latest changes for trac. Bugger!
13:33 < tryagain> hm, yes
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13:37 < tryagain> korrosa would you like to do some testing/benchmarking of new search with your netbook? Hope you will not get a crash, but response time may become worse with it.
13:48 < korrosa> tryagain: Sure, tonight when I get home!
13:49 < tryagain> ok
13:51 < korrosa> Will it affect all searches, or only those with binfiles which have non-latin characters?
13:56 < tryagain> It may affect all POI searches. But any gain you will get only with maps containing accented letters or non-latin scripts. In the first case you will be able to enter search terms in unaccented form.
14:03 < korrosa> OK, cool. See you later.
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15:47 < lindi-> posted a simple navit howto w/screencast to debconf list: http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20110718.142313.8fe393d3.en.html
16:32 < Number6> Time to learn Objective-C \o/
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17:50 < korrosa> cp15: Ping
17:50 < korrosa> (And so I don't forget, this ping is about the center coordinates)
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18:26 < lindi-> on a touchscreen sometimes when I try to drag the map I accidentally "click" it. is there some way to make navit more friendly for touchscreen use?
18:34 < korrosa> lindi-, can't answer that question, but noticed your earlier post. It mentions cloudmade maps, which uses a version of maptool which is unknown. Any reason you haven't linked to the navit planet-extractor?
18:35 < lindi-> korrosa: planet-extractor is an interactive tool, I wanted easy to follow steps that you can copy paste to shell
18:35 < lindi-> korrosa: I could link to .osm extracts too and use maptool locally
18:35 < lindi-> korrosa: but I noticed that maptool does not read protobuf format (.bpf?) yet
18:36 < korrosa> lindi-, It does.
18:36 < lindi-> korrosa: maybe I have too old version?
18:36 < korrosa> You can also hotlink directly to country extracts.
18:36 < lindi-> this is 0.5.0~svn4494+dfsg.1-1
18:36 < korrosa> Protobuf support has been in there since r3871
18:36 < lindi-> iinteresting
18:37 < korrosa> http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/OpenStreetMap#From_.pbf
18:37 < lindi-> korrosa: http://maps5.navit-project.org/ does not link to extracts
18:37 < korrosa> DON'T USE THAT LINK!!!
18:38 < korrosa> Only ever use http://maps.navit-project.org/
18:38 < lindi-> korrosa: better remove the wrong link then? ;)
18:38 < korrosa> It load balances over the numbered servers.
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18:38 < korrosa> And example for France: http://maps.navit-project.org/api/map/?bbox=-5.44921875,42.01171875,8.437500000000002,51.6796875
18:38 < lindi-> korrosa: that url is not human readable
18:38 < korrosa> So if you know your bounding box you can link to anything!
18:39 < lindi-> korrosa: the advantage that cloudmade has is that the name of the area is in the url :)
18:39 < korrosa> I thought you wanted copy/paste to shell?
18:39 < lindi-> korrosa: yes but I want to make it easy for people to fetch other areas
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18:40 < lindi-> korrosa: also hmm, cloudmade maps are not rectangle areas
18:40 < noradtux_tp> antenna1: ping
18:40 < korrosa> Understood - just be warned that the maps from cloudmade are using a version of maptool which we have no control over, and can't provide support for if they don't work.
18:41 < antenna1> noradtux_tp: pong, did it work?
18:41 < noradtux_tp> antenna1: nope
18:41 < lindi-> korrosa: I perfectly understand
18:41 < antenna1> do you have gps log?
18:42 < lindi-> korrosa: so would it be better to fetch the .osm from cloudmade and convert locally?
18:42 < korrosa> Even better: fetch it from geofabrik, then convert locally.
18:42 < antenna1> did you check whether the tunnel flag is set?
18:42 < korrosa> But this is a few levels higher than just downloading a bin and it working!
18:42 < noradtux_tp> antenna1: no, I guess you refer the integrated gps-logging of navit?
18:42 < lindi-> korrosa: unfortunately converting locally is not an option on embedded devices
18:43 < noradtux_tp> yes, the flag is there
18:43 < korrosa> lindi-, understood, but wasn't the post on a debian mailing list?
18:43 < lindi-> korrosa: I run debian on my phone
18:43 < korrosa> Ah, OK. Sophisticated!
18:44 < lindi-> korrosa: man maptool does not mention --protobuf
18:45 < antenna1> noradtux_tp: no, you can easily save it with gpsipe as well. GPS logging in navit is currently deactivated, I think. You're using svn, right?
18:45 < lindi-> korrosa: can you fix that in SVN?
18:45 < noradtux_tp> antenna1: svn, right
18:46 < korrosa> Does for me: http://i.imgur.com/6vZ62.png
18:46 < noradtux_tp> afk
18:48 < lindi-> korrosa: I added maptool --protobuf example to the HOWTO
18:50 < lindi-> korrosa: I do agree that it's a bad idea to trust services that don't tell you what source code they run :)
18:52 < korrosa> Perhaps this revision added it to the man page: http://navit.svn.sourceforge.net/navit/?rev=4594&view=rev
18:52 < lindi-> ok
18:52 < lindi-> bit newer than what's in debian
18:53 < lindi-> korrosa: I'm getting feedback from many different people about how awful navit usability is: when you click Applications->Accessories->Navit you just get an empty window :)
18:54 < antenna1> noradtux_tp: I assume, you read the article closely and run make && makeinstall in the navit folder?
18:55 < lindi-> korrosa: I'd really like to improve the situation
18:55 < lindi-> korrosa: would navit project include a helper program for selecting and updating maps?
18:56 < lindi-> korrosa: together with a usable default configuration file that could actually allow a lot of people to use navit
18:56 < korrosa> lindi-, antenna1 is currently working on a top-secret command line program which has that functionality.
18:57 < korrosa> But yeah, Navit is really for the people who have time to fiddle!
18:57 < lindi-> korrosa: command line program does not sound very easy to use
18:57 < lindi-> korrosa: I'd like to fix that :)
18:58 < lindi-> korrosa: for example I had accidentally two mapsets enabled and it took me four hours to figure out why navit was not showing anything on the screen
18:59 < korrosa> By the way, I will point out that I'm not a dev here - just a 'power' user!
19:00 < korrosa> But it's a question of resources - not enough people, not enough time.
19:00 < lindi-> sure
19:00 < lindi-> I think it should work like this: user selects Applications->Accessories->Navit Car Navigation
19:02 < lindi-> they get a dialog that tells them that they don't have any maps yet and gives them an UI for choosing what maps to download
19:02 < lindi-> initially it'd be enough if it supported just countries
19:03 < lindi-> that tool would then generate a piece of XML that describes the mapset
19:03 < lindi-> and it would be included by the default configuration
19:04 < korrosa> I think everyone here would agree with you - could you make it? And be cross-platform?
19:05 < lindi-> depends on what cross-platform means of course
19:06 < lindi-> ideally it'd be part of normal navit of coures
19:06 < lindi-> course
19:07 < Number6> Linux, Mac, Windows, iPhone, Windows Mobile, Android and WebOS :-)
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19:08 < lindi-> rright
19:09 < lindi-> I think fixing this for one system would be better than nothing
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19:11 < cp15_> Good evening
19:12 < cp15_> I have read the irc logs and have a comment on the map downloading
19:12 < cp15_> No need to write some new tools, better fix and improve what is there
19:13 < cp15_> We have a somewhat buggy download-on-demand mode which starts with an empty map and downloads stuff as needed
19:13 < cp15_> You can also say you want to have the map completed with germany, france and so on
19:14 < lindi-> cp15_: download on demand is not good for bosnia
19:14 < lindi-> cp15_: where is this mode?
19:15 < noradtux_tp> antenna1: yes, I did run make
19:16 < cp15_> You can also choose to download an area offline
19:16 < lindi-> cp15_: sounds promising but where is that? ;)
19:16 < lindi-> could we make it visible to the user by default?
19:17 < lindi-> "You have not downloaded any maps yet. Click here to download some."
19:17 < lindi-> would be a lot better than the empty window that we currently show
19:17 < cp15_> Try adding <map type="binfile" data="planet-110718.bin" url="http://maps.navit-project.org/planet-110718.bin" update="1" />
19:18 < cp15_> lindi-, sure, if you can add something like that to gui internal it would be welcome
19:18 < lindi-> cp15_: I have no experience on editing the internal menus
19:18 < lindi-> cp15_: what does that line do?
19:19 < cp15_> It downloads a map skeleton from the url provided and fills it with data as needed
19:19 < lindi-> cp15_: ok
19:19 < cp15_> Things that need fixing:
19:20 < lindi-> cp15_: so how can I tell that to download the map of germany?
19:20 < cp15_> Not from the gui or from the xml right now, but you can open a map rectangle of the requested size and set order to 99
19:21 < lindi-> you mean with web browser?
19:21 < cp15_> No, with the c api
19:21 < lindi-> uhm
19:22 < lindi-> so it's not really available to users
19:22 < cp15_> Yes, but it makes more sense to make it available than to code new tools which do the same thing and will work just on one plattform
19:23 < lindi-> maybe if it gets done :)
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19:29 < lindi-> korrosa: if I download wget http://download.geofabrik.de/osm/europe/bosnia-herzegovina.osm.pbf
19:29 < lindi-> korrosa: and use maptool --protobuf -i bosnia-herzegovina.osm.pbf bosnia-herzegovina.navit.bin
19:29 < lindi-> korrosa: then the background is blue
19:29 < lindi-> korrosa: is this a maptool bug that makes it think everything is an ocean?
19:30 < lindi-> http://downloads.cloudmade.com/europe/southern_europe/bosnia_and_herzegovina/bosnia_and_herzegovina.navit.bin.zip
19:30 < lindi-> however works
19:31 < cp15_> Two possibilities: A lake is turned the wrong way, so the water is outside instead of inside
19:31 < cp15_> Or the coastlines are incomplete, making the water flow into the land
19:33 < antenna1> noradtux_tp: maybe cp can help you. A log would be fine to see if it works for others. Next time you pass a tunnel, save the NMEA stream with 'gpspipe -r >file.txt'
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19:38 < lindi-> cp15_: hard to say. should be easy to have an assert that major cities are not in ocean? ;)
19:38 < cp15_> And then? Disable the ocean completely?
19:39 < lindi-> cp15_: notice the problem before users hit it :P
19:39 < cp15_> And then? What to do?
19:39 < lindi-> fix it :)
19:39 < cp15_> Not our field
19:40 < lindi-> huh?
19:40 < cp15_> We can't fix millions of bugs in openstreetmap
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19:40 < lindi-> cp15_: the area shows just fine in www.openstreetmap.org
19:41 < lindi-> cp15_: so either the extract is broken or maptool does not handle some detail
19:41 < cp15_> We also can't fix the wrong polygons geofabrik is using to generate the extracts
19:42 < cp15_> If the error isn't there when you download the same are from maps.navit-project.org then the coastlines are incomplete
19:42 < lindi-> but korrosa just told me to use geofabrik instead of cloudmade since you have no control over cloudmade
19:42 < lindi-> cp15_: maps.navit-project.org only supports rectangles
19:42 < lindi-> thus I can't download the same area
19:44 < cp15_> But you can download an rectangle that includes the area
19:44 < lindi-> sure?
19:44 < lindi-> but users want to download individual countries
19:45 < cp15_> Or you can even download the area around a town which is under water
19:45 < cp15_> Ok, they get slightly more... Where is the problem?
19:45 < cp15_> Alternative is that we can offer only a quite limited set of countries and update them only on a weekly basis
19:46 < lindi-> cp15_: depending on the country they can get a lot more
19:47 < lindi-> cp15_: also, doesn't navit get confused if I have mapset that has maps of finland and sweden and there's a set of nodes that are in both maps?
19:48 < cp15_> Not with the download on demand mode
19:49 < cp15_> Apart from that it won't work anyways... Either the nodes will be duplicated or there is a border node missing
19:50 < lindi-> cp15_: duplicates on the border don't sound that critical
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19:51 < cp15_> They will create a wrong announcement, since the way will be duplicated as well and there are now two possibilities to drive
19:51 < lindi-> cp15_: ok but only on border?
19:52 < lindi-> that doesn't sound too bad
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19:52 < cp15_> Depends on how much overlapping is there
19:52 < lindi-> a lot better than having areas with diameters in the order of 100 km with duplicate nodes
19:52 < lindi-> if I use rectangular extracts of countries and get two countries I get huge overlapping areas
19:53 < cp15_> True, thats why I want to have the download on demand mode fixed
19:53 < cp15_> You can then download finland and sweden and have no overlapping
19:53 < lindi-> download on demand does not work for many users since they have no internet connection when they are traveling
19:54 < cp15_> Then they can download finland and sweden at home over wifi
19:54 < lindi-> cp15_: would navit then be able to show which countries you have downloaded?
19:55 < lindi-> that is, where do you store the state that "Finland" and "Sweden" have been downloaded on 2011-02-03?
19:56 < cp15_> Well, we could add a download log or a special mode where the downloaded areas of the map are highlighted
19:57 < lindi-> hmm
20:00 -!- tryagain [d9962aec@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.150.42.236] has joined #navit
20:01 < lindi-> maybe I'll just write a Navit Configuration Tool :-)
20:02 < lindi-> if I do it in javascript then it can be used over the web and also locally?
20:03 < tryagain> we have no javascript on PND running WinCE
20:03 < lindi-> sounds ancient :)
20:04 < tryagain> hm I bought one a year ago - WinCE 6.0, 256M RAM...
20:04 < tryagain> and it works
20:04 < hape> hi, do there was some chnage in the handeling of destination.txt in the last month?
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20:04 < noradtux_tp> otoh webos is build using javascript
20:05 < hape> Navit ignores my destination that I write into it
20:05 < hape> format is :
20:05 < hape> type=former_destination label="Heidi Humann Kerschkamp's Imbißrestaurant ,Severinstr. 65 - 67,  ,50678 Köln"
20:05 < hape> mg: 6.958622005605741 50.92465504755099
20:05 < hape> hi noradtux_tp
20:05 < noradtux_tp> hi
20:07 < korrosa> hape: Isn't the prefix "mg" for hex coordinates only? I *think* you might want "geo: 6.958622005605741 50.92465504755099"
20:08 < korrosa> I may be wrong though.
20:08 -!- cp15_ [~cp15@89.204.153.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20:09 < hape> hm, was thich changed in the last time?
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20:10 < lindi-> tryagain: it doesn't have a browser?
20:10 < lindi-> korrosa: did you see my comments about cloudmade? ;)
20:10 < hape> korrosa: sorry was my foult. It is working. I just had to wait until navit got a gps fix.
20:11 < korrosa> hape: Ah yes, of course!
20:11 < korrosa> lindi-, which one? There's a million up there!
20:12 < korrosa> hape: So to confirm - you can use "mg" for decimal degree coordinates?
20:12 < hape> yes
20:13 -!- tryagain [d9962aec@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.150.42.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:13 < korrosa> OK. Every day's a schoolday!
20:15 < lindi-> korrosa: if I use geofabrik + maptool I get ocean on land
20:16 < korrosa> Yeah, I did see that. It's known, as pointed out.
20:23 < lindi-> korrosa: so users really have no option but to use cloudmade for now if they want to get a map of a country and not a larger rectangle
20:26 < korrosa> lindi-, For your particular use-case, yes.
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20:30 -!- cp15 is now known as cp15_
20:31 -!- rd [~rd@p57B49492.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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21:02 < noradtux_tp> i'm off. bye
21:02 -!- noradtux_tp [~wircer@f054017010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:02 < antenna1> bye
21:02 < korrosa> too slow!
21:02 < antenna1> one second!
21:02 < korrosa> antenna1: Shall I turn the tunnel wiki page into a patch on trac for easy application?
21:03 < antenna1> korrosa: will it work even if a new svn is realeased?
21:04 < korrosa> Yup.
21:06 < antenna1> alright, cool.
21:09 < antenna1> I wonder why it didn't work for noradtux
21:10 -!- khetzal [~quetzal@2001:470:1f13:6e7:6ef0:49ff:fee6:8e93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:12 < korrosa> [TRAC] New ticket "Tunnel extrapolation [PATCH]" http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/901
21:13 < korrosa> antenna1: So it works fine for you?
21:17 < antenna1> korrosa: I only tested it with a gps log, but it worked. Not fine, cause the gps receiver had problems getting a signal again, but that may be only in this particular situation. Cp15 thought about adding a 1-2 sec recharge to bypass the time until the signal got back.
21:42 -!- kgbricola [~chatzilla@p57AAAA2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.18/20110621100037]]
21:43 < korrosa> cp15_, can you confirm which announcement tags are the ones which are used? vehicleprofile or navigation?
21:59 < Number6> The syntax and layout of Objective C is ... interesting
21:59 < kenguest> Number6: iirc valen may be able to give you some pointers re Objective C
21:59 < kenguest> no pun intended
22:00 < Number6> Da dum tish
22:03 < korrosa> Anyone fancy committing #899 and #900 ?
22:04 <@cp15_> korrosa, currently navigation, but I want to change that soon
22:07 < korrosa> cp15_, Thanks!
22:07 < Number6> No, he didn't eat his vegetables. No commit for you
22:08 < korrosa> Boo.
22:08  * korrosa sulks.
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23:30 < Number6> Night, all
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 19 00:00:37 2011