--- Log opened Tue Aug 19 00:00:41 2014
01:07 #navit: < Navit> The following compiles failed: http://download.navit-project.org/logs/navit/src/svn/navit-svn-5877.failed http://download.navit-project.org/logs/navit/wince_arm/svn/navit-svn-5877.failed
01:07 #navit: < Navit> See compile results history at http://download.navit-project.org/logs/navit/stats.html
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15:05 #navit: <@KaZeR> hi there
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16:37 #navit: < bafplus> Hy gays...had something strange today...at a roundabout where i should go counter-clockwise, navit tells me to go clockwise...i checked the mapdata and those are correct (counterclockwise)..
16:38 #navit: < bafplus> Oops...i ment guys ...
17:10 #navit: < woglinde> hm so you found a bug in navit
17:10 #navit: < woglinde> maybe
17:10 #navit: < woglinde> would be good if you can reproduce it with the demo car
17:10 #navit: < woglinde> and make a bug entry of course
17:11 #navit: <@KaZeR> bafplus: haha nice lapsus :)
17:11 #navit: <@KaZeR> bafplus: do you have the coordinates of this roundabout ?
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17:39 #navit: < bafplus> Sure... http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/6318698#map=18/51.57554/5.06662
17:40 #navit: < bafplus> i was driving from west to east
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17:50 #navit: < bafplus> Ans it did the same on the way back...
18:01 #navit: < bafplus> i used the current BeNeLux map from planetextractor
18:01 #navit: < Celelibi> <tauso> Celelibi: there are actioncams with gps <-- yes but the most complicated part is not capturing the video, it's processing it to automatically extract the road signs.
18:02 #navit: < Celelibi> And possibly, check automatically that OSM has already the correct information.
18:03 #navit: < Celelibi> In order to give less work to a human.
18:03 #navit: < bafplus> Ans how does that "read" the streetnames?
18:03 #navit: < Celelibi> In my experience, the street names are correct.
18:03 #navit: < Celelibi> Or mostly.
18:04 #navit: < bafplus> Today i was in a recent developt street, the street was visable, but no streetname was assigned yet
18:04 #navit: < Celelibi> Ok.
18:04 #navit: < bafplus> I guess it will work with one-way streets and speedsigns etc...
18:05 #navit: < bafplus> One of the biggest "bugs" with OSM is that one-way streets are the wrong way, atleast, it happends alot here in netherlands
18:05 #navit: < Celelibi> In France, mapping the streets and street names and building shapes has been done automatically from the cadastres I think.
18:06 #navit: < Celelibi> It's roughly exact.
18:06 #navit: < bafplus> Here in the netherlands you see the "google" cameracar about 2 times a year
18:07 #navit: < Celelibi> I've never seen one.
18:07 #navit: < bafplus> Bit i have seen about 4-5 different company's who capture the streets...
18:08 #navit: < Celelibi> I think doing automatic information extaction a-la google could greatly improve the speed at which OSM improve.
18:08 #navit: < bafplus> The map of the netherlands is pretty good, just a lot of "small" mistakes like the one-direction streets or streets that have roadblocks but the map says you can drive thru...
18:09 #navit: < bafplus> but i guess that no map is "perfect"
18:09 #navit: < Celelibi> Imagine, you drive your new streets with a gopro on your helmet (and take a look at every street name), you get back home and it make a roughly correct map.
18:10 #navit: < Celelibi> You'd just have to fix the mistakes.
18:11 #navit: < Celelibi> This would reduce the time needed by a lot.
18:11 #navit: < Celelibi> BTW, OSM already talk about that here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Video_mapping#Machine_recognition
18:12 #navit: < Celelibi> bafplus: "one-direction" streets and speed limits are the information that are the most often wrong here too.
18:13 #navit: < Celelibi> Last week-end I drove 500km, and most of the time it said 80km/h. While this is almost inexistent in france.
18:13 #navit: < Celelibi> It's mostly 50 or 90. Sometime 70.
18:14 #navit: < Celelibi> And I definitely wouldn't want to watch 8h of footage to catch every single road sign and check whether OSM has it correct.
18:16 #navit: < Celelibi> Also, does navit's routing algorithm has a penalty for the turns and stop and traffic light?
18:17 #navit: < bafplus> Panalty? like adding time for every traffic light?
18:17 #navit: < Celelibi> Yes.
18:17 #navit: < bafplus> my gut feeling says no...
18:17 #navit: < bafplus> judging from calculated route times
18:17 #navit: < Celelibi> That's also my feeling.
18:18 #navit: < Celelibi> But it would be nice to improve the routing algorithm that way.
18:18 #navit: < bafplus> but what time to use? Not every traffic light has the same time...
18:18 #navit: < Celelibi> Maybe it could be configurable.
18:18 #navit: < bafplus> and its a "estimated" ETA ;-)
18:19 #navit: < Celelibi> Even a default value of 20 sec would be better than a default value of 0 sec. :)
18:19 #navit: < bafplus> you have a point
18:20 #navit: < Celelibi> And navit did also a few surprising things during my trip. I was on a road limited at 90 or 110km/h (I can't remember) which was making a long curve to the right.
18:20 #navit: < bafplus> But i guess there is a lot of data in the OSM map that is usable, but not implemented in Navit (yet)
18:20 #navit: < Celelibi> And there was an exit on the right.
18:20 #navit: < Celelibi> navit made me exit the road to re-enter it immediately.
18:20 #navit: < Celelibi> Because the straight path is shorter. :)
18:21 #navit: < bafplus> Thats just because the exit is marked as "highway" in OSM instead of "highway-exit"
18:21 #navit: < bafplus> saw that "flaw" at some other points here to
18:21 #navit: < Celelibi> The exit is supposed to have a lower speed limit also.
18:22 #navit: < bafplus> Thats a secundary argument, the "level" of a exit is lower than a highway, so if marked correctly it should work regardless of speeds
18:22 #navit: < Celelibi> And once at the end of the exit, there is a stop sign.
18:23 #navit: < bafplus> at least.....i think... ;-)
18:23 #navit: < bafplus> but then again...is it a Navit flaw...or a OSM flaw...
18:23 #navit: < bafplus> I figure its a OSM flaw
18:24 #navit: < Celelibi> I know. OSM is not complete.
18:24 #navit: < Celelibi> Far from it.
18:25 #navit: < bafplus> or messed up by "one-time" users who just change something to try-out how it works...
18:25 #navit: < bafplus> If a want i can mess everything up with just 1 click....
18:26 #navit: < Celelibi> Can't it be reverted wiki-like?
18:26 #navit: < bafplus> There should be some review structure, like if you change something it has to be reviewed and accepted before actual change it
18:26 #navit: < Celelibi> Oh, also. The legal speed limit in OSM may not be the most accurate thing.
18:26 #navit: < bafplus> like revert it back to how it was before? I guess...
18:27 #navit: < Celelibi> I think collecting the data from a lot of users would be a better source of information.
18:27 #navit: < bafplus> Nothing is accurate ;-)  there should be some disclaimer/warning in navit that Navit/OSM can not be held responsible for inaccurate data
18:28 #navit: < Celelibi> Yes but we can work on it!
18:28 #navit: < Celelibi> :)
18:28 #navit: < bafplus> And a "drive safe" warning ;-)
18:29 #navit: < Celelibi> This shouldn't need to be said. :p
18:30 #navit: < bafplus> If i notice a flaw in OSm and i have the time i change it...Just like the street name i mentioned before...today o couldent find it, took me a while...but the change is big that i come there  anywere in the future...so i change it right away just to help myself (and colegues) lateron (and everyone else to)
18:31 #navit: < bafplus> it shouldnt be said...ehum...so why do all the "high-end" navs display that warning once in a while... ;-)
18:31 #navit: < Celelibi> It takes time to make changes to OSM.
18:31 #navit: < Celelibi> Hence the idea of automating the process as much as possible.
18:32 #navit: < Celelibi> A tool could even propose the changes that you review (check against google street view or bing maps) and accept.
18:33 #navit: < Celelibi> If you look at technology development history, it's automation that made us go to the next level. Every single time.
18:34 #navit: < bafplus> compare it with google??
18:34 #navit: < Celelibi> Check that the changes proposed by the tool are correct. Use whatever additional source of information you want.
18:34 #navit: < bafplus> OSM is "faster" with recording new streets tha Google.... Same with the street today...it was on the OSM map, only without name, Google doesent even show it yet
18:36 #navit: < bafplus> but then again...i used a lot of "premium" maps...even with its flaws...OSM is still the most accurate....
18:36 #navit: < Celelibi> OSM has a lot of people working on it all around the world, every one doing a little work. Google has a few cars and severly powerful softwares to process the image gathers.
18:36 #navit: < Celelibi> It's a completely different way of working.
18:38 #navit: < bafplus> tru..but i'm on the road all days navigating to about 10-15 costumers...i prefer up to date roads....then OSM is you're best map i guess
18:38 #navit: < bafplus> Ans if there is a change...you don't have to wait a year before the map is updated
18:39 #navit: < Celelibi> You and me also have a completely different use of navit. I drive twice the year and make a total of 2000km per year.
18:39 #navit: < Celelibi> It's easier for a user like you to make small changes from time to time.
18:40 #navit: < Celelibi> It'd be quite a pain if I wanted to correct every single mistakes I encounter.
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18:43 #navit: < bafplus> It would be great tho if you can change some small things like roadblocks or one-way streets directly within Navit....and send it to OSM aswell
18:44 #navit: < bafplus> or at least "mark" the street/point with a remark and send it to OSM, then others can pick it up and make the changes
18:45 #navit: < Celelibi> You can mark a point I think.
18:45 #navit: < bafplus> i could do that myself...but that would take to much of my gprs dataplan to keep OSM.org open all the time ;-)
18:45 #navit: < Celelibi> I've been told so here a year ago or two.
18:46 #navit: < bafplus> on osm.org you can leave a remark so anybody else can pick it up and make the change...but right from navit?
18:47 #navit: < bafplus> But only the function to mark a section of a road as roadblock would be great...then yoy can mark a roadblock or a temporary roadblock so Navit navigates around it the next time
18:48 #navit: < bafplus> Like here in the city there are a lot of cunstruction roadblocks...its a pain to manualy navigate around them everytime because yoy rely to much on you're navigation nowdays
18:49 #navit: < bafplus> (if implemented) it just takes you 1-2 clicks to place a roadblock so navit navigates around it untill you manualy remove it again
18:49 #navit: < Celelibi> That's true, sometime you come to a point where navit want you to take a "one way" backward, and then it try to make you go thourgh it again and again and again.
18:50 #navit: < Celelibi> But I have no idea how you could implement this in a way easy to use.
18:51 #navit: < Celelibi> Maybe show a button "road block?" when you take a road that isn't the planned one.
18:51 #navit: < bafplus> And that would also work for traffic yams...like if you know there is a trafficjam say 5 km in front of you, you can tell navit to place a temporary roadblock for the next 10km so navit takes yoy around the trafficjam
18:51 #navit: < bafplus> or menu->map->place/remove roadblock or something
18:51 #navit: < Celelibi> too long.
18:52 #navit: < Celelibi> idealy it's a one-press action.
18:52 #navit: < Celelibi> When I drive in a city, I don't have time to navigate through the menu.
18:52 #navit: < bafplus> maybe but you get the idea...i don't know but i have seen it before...i guess it was TomTom or Sygic...
18:53 #navit: < bafplus> Good thing i use navit on my laptop...many room for OSD buttons ;-)
18:53 #navit: < Celelibi> I do that too. :)
18:53 #navit: < Celelibi> But unfortunately, I can't interact with it when I drive.
18:54 #navit: < Celelibi> I put my laptop on the passenger floor.
18:55 #navit: < bafplus> I have a laptopstand so my is within reech and touch-screen
18:56 #navit: < Celelibi> Nice.
18:57 #navit: < Celelibi> Sorry, I have to go right now. But I guess we have enough in this discussion to open a few tickets on the trac. :)
19:01 #navit: < bafplus> Not my actual care but same principle, same laptop tho ;-) http://ddq74coujkv1i.cloudfront.net/pan2iu1.jpg
19:11 #navit: < bafplus> KaZeR did yoy get the coordinates for the roundabout?
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19:37 #navit: < Celelibi> bafplus: nice. But I don't think it would be worth the 24 hours a year I spend in my car. :)
19:37 #navit: < bafplus> Nope, i guess not...
19:38 #navit: < Celelibi> Not even sure owning a car is worth it.
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19:58 #navit: <@KaZeR> bafplus: yes
19:58 #navit: <@KaZeR> i'm a bit busy right now, so you might want to open a ticket to ensure someone will have a look
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20:02 #navit: < zoff99> hi guys
20:08 #navit: <@KaZeR> hey zoff99
20:08 #navit: <@KaZeR> long time no see
20:09 #navit: < zoff99> hi KaZeR , yeah long time
20:09 #navit: < zoff99> the evil one does not show up too often here :-)
20:10 #navit: <@KaZeR> trolls / flamewar don't do any good to anybody
20:10 #navit: <@KaZeR> i don't give a rat's ass
20:10 #navit: < zoff99> ok :)
20:11 #navit: < zoff99> lot of people here in the channel
20:15 #navit: <@KaZeR> yep. there's activity almost daily :)
20:26 #navit: < bafplus> KaZeR , i only had the bug once...when i'm in the area again i will retry it, if it happends again i will file a ticket for it
20:26 #navit: <@KaZeR> we can easily reproduce the routing once we have the coordinates
20:27 #navit: < bafplus> What i "need" more is the zipcode search and speed-limit text-color so i sure hope someone can pick those up...
20:28 #navit: < bafplus> Now we are on the topic...how do you take the demo-car to travel a route?
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20:29 #navit: <@KaZeR> you set a position, a destination, and it will moves automatically ( assuming it's your active vehicle )
20:30 #navit: < bafplus> ow and what is the best way to contact cp15? (email or something, maybe pm me any details...)
20:30 #navit: < bafplus> Ah ok...never tried...
20:31 #navit: <@KaZeR> i can give you his business email in pm if it's for the business need we discussed
20:31 #navit: < bafplus> yes, its about that and license questions etc...
20:32 #navit: <@KaZeR> i guessed :)
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20:59 #navit: < zoff99> see ya guys
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21:04 #navit: < bafplus> Going again?
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 20 00:00:41 2014