--- Log opened Fri Feb 26 00:00:11 2016
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02:10 #navit: < Simple_> thank you very much :)
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12:35 #navit: < Simple_> hi all
12:35 #navit: < Simple_> hi KaZeR
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13:19 #navit: < KaZeR> hi there
13:19 #navit: < KaZeR> hi Simple_
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13:56 #navit: < Simple_> KaZer, can u help me again?
13:56 #navit: < Simple_> i've some questions
14:09 #navit: < jandegr> imple you can ask right away without asking, answer can come instantly or sometimes days later :)
14:10 #navit: < jandegr> sorry, imple was to be simple_
14:43 #navit: < Simple_> ok)
14:43 #navit: < Simple_> What is segment mean? Code says that it is the drivable way. Is that mean we are worked with ready graph ? Is the segment is edge of graph? Where are the segments come? Can the segments pass through rivers, building, etc ? Does the segments stores into osm file, or it is created during coverting osm file into a bin file?
14:47 #navit: < jandegr> maptool splits roads at crossings to store them in a binfile, route.c loads those as edges in the graph
14:48 #navit: < jandegr> you would have one pass throug a river or building if there was such a real life road
14:50 #navit: < jandegr> route.c uses the word 'segment' but they correspond to edges as used in most of the literature
14:50 #navit: < Simple_> got it
14:50 #navit: < Simple_> but where are edges from?
14:51 #navit: < Simple_> does osm provide graph edges?
14:51 #navit: < Simple_> or navIt create it ?
14:52 #navit: < jandegr> have a look at maptool, it converts OSM data into binfile, as those you can download from the mapserver
14:53 #navit: < jandegr> and route.c constructs a graph on the fly from the segments (or edges or roads or whatever name they get), each time you want a new route
14:54 #navit: < Simple_> what moment route.c constructs a graph?
14:54 #navit: < Simple_> when I will get start and end point?
14:55 #navit: < Simple_> and navIt creates bouding rectangle
14:55 #navit: < Simple_> right?
14:55 #navit: < jandegr> route.c jumps into action as soon as both an end and startpoint are set
14:56 #navit: < Simple_> i.e. before this moment, a graph is not exist ?
15:05 #navit: < jandegr> correct
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16:53 #navit: < Simple_> does bin file already has ready segments and navIt just assemble ready vertexes and edges?
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17:04 #navit: < Simple_> The segments is not intersect buildings, rivers. Who does provide it ? Osm ? or NavIt ? Who does originaly create correct segment ?
17:15 #navit: < Simple_> How does a bin file get attributes like a AF_ONEWAY; AF_SPEED_LIMIT; etc ?
17:16 #navit: < Simple_> Does osm has ready data for it?
17:18 #navit: < Simple_> Some objects like a building, walls, woods have effect to a finish route, right? How does they are considered?
17:19 #navit: < Simple_> What about member of struct "route_graph" - "avoid_seg" ?  I guess, this member stores a few unpasseble segments, right? What are they? How does navIt decide, is the segment unpasseble or not?
17:22 #navit: <@KaZeR> segments are provided by osm. maptool converts the osm "ways" into objects that navit will be able to use for routing. buildings, rivers, forests, ... are polygons, hence not routables
17:22 #navit: <@KaZeR> attributes such as AF_ONEWAY are also provided by osm
17:23 #navit: < Simple_> thank you
17:24 #navit: <@KaZeR> there is two factors influencing if a segment is routable or not : the tags that are provided by osm (and converted by maptool) AND the settings such as https://github.com/navit-gps/navit/blob/trunk/navit/navit_shipped.xml#L185-L200
17:24 #navit: <@KaZeR> you're welcome :)
17:24 #navit: <@KaZeR> it would be great if you could add some of the stuffs you learnt to the wiki :D
17:25 #navit: < Simple_> i will be glad to add something to wiki
17:25 #navit: < robertp> Hi Kazer.
17:25 #navit: < Simple_> but my engl is bad
17:25 #navit: < Simple_> need a editor :)
17:26 #navit: < Simple_> an editor )
17:26 #navit: <@KaZeR> hi robertp
17:27 #navit: <@KaZeR> Simple_: don't worry about your english. if we have content, someone else will review and fix. adding valuable content is the difficult part :)
17:27 #navit: <@KaZeR> look also at https://github.com/navit-gps/navit/blob/trunk/navit/item.c#L45-L55 for usable items definitions
17:27 #navit: < robertp> I've had an idea during a business trip: would it be possible - and easy :) - to make autozoom to zoom at a level where the position and the next intersection is visible?
17:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> btw i'd be happy to review any edit your would like to make if you feel that it would help. ping me anytime ( but i'll be less available next week, vacations)
17:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> robertp: it is possible indeed
17:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> actually there's even a widget to do something like that, although it's not widely used
17:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> need to find it back hang on
17:29 #navit: <@KaZeR> robertp: here you go : https://github.com/navit-gps/navit/blob/trunk/navit/osd/core/osd_core.c#L3769
17:31 #navit: < robertp> Cool, thanks. I'll try it.
17:32 #navit: <@KaZeR> np. it's probably the least documented OSD item :)
17:32 #navit: <@KaZeR> that's a call to edit :D
17:32 #navit: <@KaZeR> http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/OSD
17:34 #navit: < robertp> Mh.. The site doesn't open. That must be a sign...
17:42 #navit: < Simple_> How navIt will do(how many tiles to load? how build a graph? ), if needed to build a route through whole Europe(for example), tens of cities, hundreds of intersections and multiple restrictions and conditions ? And how fast it will be?
17:43 #navit: <@KaZeR> robertp: which site, the wiki ?
17:43 #navit: < robertp> Yes. The forum too.
17:43 #navit: <@KaZeR> robertp: i've heard about issues concerning the forum. i'll look into it now. wiki works for me albeit a bit slow
17:44 #navit: <@KaZeR> Simple_: we should benchmark it :)
17:44 #navit: < Simple_> okay
17:44 #navit: <@KaZeR> Simple_: we actually do have some routing QA
17:44 #navit: <@KaZeR> https://github.com/navit-gps/routing-qa for the tests
17:44 #navit: < robertp> Simple_: If you take a RaspberryPi for a route through europe, it might take ages.
17:45 #navit: < Simple_> nope
17:45 #navit: < robertp> Kazer, it works now.
17:45 #navit: < Simple_> just a PC
17:47 #navit: < Simple_> for example route from Berlin to Praha
17:47 #navit: < Simple_> How much tiles will be load
17:47 #navit: <@KaZeR> Simple_: we will have to find a way to make these datas more easily available, but here's the QA tests output for example : http://pastebin.com/raw/Bj9LWipT
17:47 #navit: < Simple_> i just want to understand mechanism
17:48 #navit: <@KaZeR> Simple_: navit will load less tiles outside of a given radius around your position and your destination
17:48 #navit: < Simple_> but how navIt build detailed graph?
17:48 #navit: <@KaZeR> because we don't need all details of all the streets in the middle of a 100kms+ route
17:49 #navit: <@KaZeR> if you look at the example i shared in http://pastebin.com/raw/Bj9LWipT
17:49 #navit: <@KaZeR> the last example is the Route66, US
17:49 #navit: <@KaZeR> 3289 kms, routed in 6.94919991493s
17:49 #navit: <@KaZeR> (of course routing speed depends A LOT on your cpu)
17:50 #navit: < Simple_> okay, i see
17:50 #navit: <@KaZeR> alexhell0xbf: if you are around, it reminds me of something i wanted to discuss regarding map download
17:56 #navit: < Simple_> yes, but we need detailed info to build main route?
17:57 #navit: < Simple_> that's why navIt must load max zoom lvl tiles, right?
17:57 #navit: < Simple_> 18 or something else
17:57 #navit: < Simple_> for create detailed graph, Am I right?
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17:58 #navit: < circleci-bot> No tests: pgrandin's build (#170; push) in navit-gps/routing-qa (gh-pages) -- https://circleci.com/gh/navit-gps/routing-qa/170
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17:59 #navit: <@KaZeR> Simple_: this is where the different levels of streets kick in for example
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18:04 #navit: < Simple_> dont got it :(
18:05 #navit: < Simple_> Is navIt load max zoom(18 or ??) level tiles in selected rectangle?
18:07 #navit: <@KaZeR> for a given area (or position) we have different levels of tiles. example : abcd will contain the whole world. so moslty you'll see informations about oceans and land.
18:07 #navit: <@KaZeR> actually even better. this ticket : http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/456
18:08 #navit: <@KaZeR> there is a lot in it but the key takeway is to compare the pedantic profile with another default profile
18:08 #navit: <@KaZeR> this shows how to use deeper layers tiles to have a more detailed/accurate route calculation
18:09 #navit: <@KaZeR> the default profile is a tradeoff between being fast (so, parsing less segments) and being accurate
18:09 #navit: <@KaZeR> does this make sense?
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18:18 #navit: < Simple_> okay
18:18 #navit: < Simple_> i will check ticket a little bit later
18:18 #navit: < Simple_> to big arcticle for me :)
18:19 #navit: < Simple_> can u to correct me
18:19 #navit: < Simple_> look
18:19 #navit: < Simple_> for example "whole world"
18:19 #navit: < Simple_> http://i76.fastpic.ru/big/2016/0227/6e/ff48fdad9154dda610f5e4069550dd6e.png
18:19 #navit: < Simple_> than
18:19 #navit: < Simple_> navIt divide in 4 parts
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> right
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> ?
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> and we get the result
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> something like this
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> http://i76.fastpic.ru/big/2016/0227/45/f7cf671c37cea1b1687b8a3a7174d645.png
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> than
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> else
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> zoom
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> http://i76.fastpic.ru/big/2016/0227/1e/7b4523d42a25252b1dfdc1e5b9a43a1e.png
18:20 #navit: < Simple_> and elese
18:21 #navit: < Simple_> oh, mistake - more and more )
18:21 #navit: < Simple_> http://i76.fastpic.ru/big/2016/0227/de/e35eb6e4349d9b61e251ce6e35aa23de.png
18:21 #navit: < Simple_> another zoomlevel and - more tiles
18:21 #navit: < Simple_> right?
18:22 #navit: < Simple_> and it will be continue until we reach max zoom level
18:22 #navit: < Simple_> it is - 18 level, right?
18:23 #navit: <@KaZeR> yes, you got the idea :)
18:25 #navit: < Simple_> finaly we have huge set of tiles
18:26 #navit: < Simple_> and get detailed info about streets, roads and somethings else in the selected rectangle?
18:27 #navit: <@KaZeR> yes. the deeper the tile, the smaller area it wil cover and the more details it will contain
18:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> actually, here's something fun to try: a binfile is just a zip file
18:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> you can unzip it, and look at the size and organization of the tiles
18:28 #navit: < Simple_> yes
18:28 #navit: < Simple_> i read about that)
18:28 #navit: < Simple_> and try to unzip it
18:30 #navit: <@KaZeR> ok great. here's a proof of concept of an in-place map updater : https://github.com/pgrandin/map_updater/blob/master/updater.rb
18:30 #navit: <@KaZeR> what it does is just compare the checksum of a local tile against a central index. and download a tile to replace the outdated one directly in the zip file if needed
18:34 #navit: < Simple_> okay
18:34 #navit: < Simple_> thank you
18:37 #navit: < Simple_> can u explain me more detailed about "load less datas to speedup the routing" ?
18:40 #navit: < Simple_> "we don't need all details of all the streets in the middle of a 100kms+ route"
18:41 #navit: < Simple_> what do u mean by that?
18:42 #navit: < Simple_> i'm about middle
18:42 #navit: < Simple_> middle of what?
18:46 #navit: <@KaZeR> let's say you want to drive to a place 100 kms away
18:48 #navit: <@KaZeR> the graph will be built using datas for, say, 10 kms around your position at level 18, 20 kms around your position at level 14. same around your destination. in between, we will just need datas from level 10 for example
18:48 #navit: <@KaZeR> numbers are almost random in my example, it's just to explain the ida
18:48 #navit: <@KaZeR> idea
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18:48 #navit: <@KaZeR> actually the correct numbers are here : http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Routing
18:49 #navit: <@KaZeR> Then the graph gets flooded, beginning with the destination. This makes the graph re-useable when the position changes.
18:49 #navit: <@KaZeR> this is actually important. because your destination does not change usually, but your position will change every second
18:49 #navit: <@KaZeR> so everytime we just need to update at worst one segment at the edge of the graph. makes sense?
18:52 #navit: < Simple_> okay, i got it
18:57 #navit: <@KaZeR> great :)
18:58 #navit: < Simple_> I was prepared a picture for understanding subject
18:59 #navit: < Simple_> can u correct me if I understand not correct
18:59 #navit: < Simple_> http://i75.fastpic.ru/big/2016/0227/5b/1c597d1b8bc7eccd6ea956a712682c5b.png
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19:00 #navit: < Simple_> black rectangles is "load less datas"
19:00 #navit: < Simple_> and in cities
19:00 #navit: < Simple_> Berlin, Drezden, Praha we have ~18 zoomlevel
19:01 #navit: < Simple_> I was painted it with green circles
19:01 #navit: < Simple_> Am I understand it correct?
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19:06 #navit: < circleci-bot> Failed: pgrandin's build (#171; push) in navit-gps/routing-qa (gh-pages) -- https://circleci.com/gh/navit-gps/routing-qa/171
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19:10 #navit: <@KaZeR> i sense a slight misunderstanding. your picture is a great example actually ( even if your image hosting website isn't ;) )
19:11 #navit: <@KaZeR> your image is correct IF you have a waypoint in Dresden ( because we need details about the streets around your waypoint
19:11 #navit: <@KaZeR> otherwise, we don't need the details of the streets in Dresden. we'll just use the highway, that will be included in the level 10 anyway
19:11 #navit: <@KaZeR> makes sense?
19:13 #navit: <@KaZeR> the possible misunderstanding : we do not load tiles depending of the type of streets it contains. I mean we do not stop at level 10 because there is only a highway. It works the other way around
19:14 #navit: <@KaZeR> when loading a tile at level 10, you do not know if a tile at level 11 will contain more details ( is there something else than an highway?)
19:14 #navit: <@KaZeR> the only way to know is to actually load the lower level tiles.
19:15 #navit: <@KaZeR> instead we load tiles depending of the level of details we expect to need for the routing. 200 kms between two spots? highways and main roads should be fine.
19:15 #navit: < Simple_> okay
19:15 #navit: < Simple_> start point on the top
19:15 #navit: < Simple_> is berlin
19:15 #navit: < Simple_> and end point at bottom
19:15 #navit: < Simple_> is praha
19:16 #navit: < Simple_> intermediate point is dresden
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19:17 #navit: <@KaZeR> by intermediate point, do you mean a waypoint that you define in navit as a waypoint ?
19:17 #navit: < Simple_> what is waypoint? Do u mean a end point?
19:18 #navit: <@KaZeR> let's say you want to drive from berlin to praha, but you are picking up a friend in dresden. you can set praha as being your destination in navit, then add a waypoint in Dresden (search for the address, then click on "visit before" )
19:19 #navit: <@KaZeR> then navit will route you to dresden, and once you will reach the exact waypoint in dresden it will automatically continue to route you to Praha
19:20 #navit: < Simple_> and if i dont add a waypoint in dresden?
19:20 #navit: < Simple_> but only two points
19:20 #navit: < Simple_> berlin and praha
19:20 #navit: <@KaZeR> this has several useful use cases. picking up someone on the way, setting up a waypoint to avoid a part of the route you don't like, or defining a set of waypoints because you like some specific route. For example, if you want to drive along a scenic route along the ocean
19:20 #navit: < Simple_> how does navIt route me across dresden?
19:21 #navit: <@KaZeR> if you don't add a waypoint in Dresden, the area containing dresden will be loaded as level 10, and you'll probably stay on the highway
19:21 #navit: < Simple_> i have loaded bin file with map
19:21 #navit: <@KaZeR> this is an interesting discussion, i'll definitely setup a page explaining that with some screenshots. maybe we can have some informations being overlayed also in the images generated by the routing QA
19:22 #navit: < Simple_> and try to get route accross few cities, providing only two poins(without waypoints)
19:22 #navit: < Simple_> and i get pretty well result
19:23 #navit: <@KaZeR> great :)
19:23 #navit: < Simple_> route was detailed and trueful
19:24 #navit: < Simple_> you told that if i dont add a waypoint, the area in town will be loaded as level 10
19:25 #navit: < Simple_> but in my case, how navIt knowns about route accross cities, withou loading more detailed tiles?
19:25 #navit: < Simple_> it seems navIt does not need a waypoint
19:25 #navit: < Simple_> to build a graph through cities
19:25 #navit: < Simple_> Am I wrong?
19:26 #navit: <@KaZeR> we usually don't want the route accross cities like Dresden in your example, because instead of leaving the highway and going through the city then back on the highway, most of the time you just want to go via the highway
19:27 #navit: <@KaZeR> it's usually easier and faster
19:27 #navit: < Simple_> yes
19:27 #navit: <@KaZeR> also, keep in mind that the graph is rebuilt while you drive
19:27 #navit: < Simple_> but if the shortes way is through the city?
19:27 #navit: < Simple_> shortest*
19:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> so when you will be near Dresden, it will be your current position, so navit will load more datas in this area
19:28 #navit: < Simple_> BINGO
19:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> :)
19:28 #navit: < Simple_> i finally got it)
19:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> by default, navit does not aim for shortest : it aims for fastest
19:28 #navit: <@KaZeR> (but this is configurable)
19:28 #navit: < Simple_> where is this configuration?
19:29 #navit: < Simple_> how i can find it?
19:30 #navit: <@KaZeR> actually this : https://circle-artifacts.com/gh/navit-gps/routing-qa/169/artifacts/0/tmp/circle-artifacts.oSrlYsn/Fremont_drive_bypass.yamlmetric.png is a good example of a bad use of shortest vs fastest. the yellow road is shorter and technically faster here because you have priority over the other traffic ( no stop sign) but navit routes you via the 2 red streets because yellow is ~30km/h and red is ~40km/h
19:30 #navit: <@KaZeR> you can configure it here : https://github.com/navit-gps/navit/blob/trunk/navit/navit_shipped.xml#L185-L200
19:30 #navit: <@KaZeR> (you can just create your own profile and switch from the gui)
19:31 #navit: <@KaZeR> in my car, i also have a computer so plenty of cpu, and i like to use the car pedantic profile
19:31 #navit: <@KaZeR> you can compare with car_shortest :  route_weight is the key here
19:34 #navit: < Simple_> i can configure it by changin "route_weight" value
19:34 #navit: < Simple_> Am I right?
19:38 #navit: < Simple_> oh no
19:38 #navit: < Simple_> i'm wrong
19:38 #navit: < Simple_> just need a lil bit time
19:39 #navit: < Simple_> to gain an understanding
19:39 #navit: < Simple_> thank you very much
19:39 #navit: < Simple_> you are great man )
19:40 #navit: < Simple_> i will add some info to the wiki page later
19:40 #navit: <@KaZeR> haha thanks my pleasure
19:40 #navit: <@KaZeR> awesome! that's how we will eventually end up with a comprenhensive documentation for new users :)
19:41 #navit: <@KaZeR> btw : i love hearing about new users's setups and comments about usability. so feel free to share more about how you are using Navit, what you like and dislike
19:41 #navit: <@KaZeR> if you'd like to get involved, we're also always looking for volunteers. there's plenty to do :)
19:43 #navit: < Simple_> i will help navIt as I can )
19:43 #navit: <@KaZeR> great :)
19:43 #navit: <@KaZeR> do you already have some hardware to run on?
19:43 #navit: < Simple_> i was try on PC only
19:43 #navit: <@KaZeR> a great place to start contributing is often the translations : https://translations.launchpad.net/navit
19:43 #navit: <@KaZeR> ok
19:44 #navit: <@KaZeR> are you using the GTK interface or the internal gui ?
19:44 #navit: < Simple_> not sure
19:44 #navit: < Simple_> for now
19:45 #navit: < Simple_> just run navIt.exe :D
19:45 #navit: <@KaZeR> does the menu looks like this? https://wiki.navit-project.org/images/thumb/7/71/InternalGui-MainMenu.png/300px-InternalGui-MainMenu.png
19:48 #navit: < Simple_> yes
19:49 #navit: < Simple_> exactly
19:49 #navit: <@KaZeR> ok. so this in internal. it is mostly intended for touchscreens ( even if it works fine on PC)
19:50 #navit: <@KaZeR> the gtk gui allows you deeper access to debuging informations. you can right click on an item to get details, for example
19:50 #navit: < Simple_> okay
19:51 #navit: < Simple_> is this info stores on wiki page?
19:51 #navit: < Simple_> about gtk
19:52 #navit: <@KaZeR> it should, but maybe we could make it better. try http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Configuration#Display_Options
19:53 #navit: < Simple_> okay
19:53 #navit: < Simple_> i will check it
19:54 #navit: < Simple_> some offtopic
19:54 #navit: < Simple_> about image hosting web site
19:54 #navit: < Simple_> you told, that mine site is bad
19:54 #navit: < Simple_> i known it
19:54 #navit: < Simple_> my casual image hosting not available for now
19:55 #navit: < Simple_> and i use random site
19:55 #navit: < Simple_> what resources(image, data, hosting) do u use ?
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19:57 #navit: < circleci-bot> No tests: pgrandin's build (#173; push) in navit-gps/routing-qa (gh-pages) -- https://circleci.com/gh/navit-gps/routing-qa/173
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19:58 #navit: <@KaZeR> i did not say that it was bad, just that it was erm.. well. i don't know :)
19:59 #navit: <@KaZeR> http://imgur.com/ is a bit less intrusive for example
20:00 #navit: < Simple_> okay, i will be keep it in mind
20:00 #navit: < Simple_> and in my browser`s bookmarks )
20:01 #navit: < Simple_> where I can find you ?
20:01 #navit: < Simple_> and time range?
20:04 #navit: < Simple_> specify time zone please
20:04 #navit: < Simple_> or we have same time zone
20:04 #navit: < Simple_> this chat shows to me 4 a.m
20:09 #navit: <@KaZeR> you can find me here. if i'm in front of my computer, i usually look at irc.
20:10 #navit: <@KaZeR> it's 5pm for me right now. i'm usually around during week days. sometimes during the week-ends too, but a bit less
20:10 #navit: <@KaZeR> also i won't be online a lot next week, i'll be in vacations.
20:11 #navit: <@KaZeR> but there's other folks who can help you :) most of the users are either in western europe (jandegr, robertp). tryagain is in your timezone i believe.
20:12 #navit: < Simple_> okay
20:12 #navit: < Simple_> thank you
20:13 #navit: < Simple_> at last
20:13 #navit: < Simple_> are u developer of navIt?
20:13 #navit: <@KaZeR> i am indeed. but some other folks can write code wayyy better than i do :)
20:14 #navit: < Simple_> jandegr?
20:14 #navit: < Simple_> robertp?
20:14 #navit: < Simple_> they are developers too?
20:14 #navit: <@KaZeR> clarification : i'm one of the members of the project. we have about 6 active contributors right now i'd say. overall in 10 years, probably 20-30 people contributed
20:14 #navit: <@KaZeR> yes
20:15 #navit: < Simple_> got it
20:15 #navit: < Simple_> thank you very much
20:15 #navit: < Simple_> again
20:15 #navit: < Simple_> for help
20:15 #navit: <@KaZeR> my pleasure :)
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20:23 #navit: < circleci-bot> Failed: pgrandin's build (#177; push) in navit-gps/routing-qa (gh-tests) -- https://circleci.com/gh/navit-gps/routing-qa/177
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21:29 #navit: < circleci-bot> Fixed: pgrandin's build (#184; push) in navit-gps/routing-qa (master) -- https://circleci.com/gh/navit-gps/routing-qa/184
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21:45 #navit: < circleci-bot> Fixed: pgrandin's build (#181; ssh by pgrandin) in navit-gps/routing-qa (gh-tests) -- https://circleci.com/gh/navit-gps/routing-qa/181
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--- Log closed Sat Feb 27 00:00:12 2016