--- Log opened Tue Jun 07 00:00:37 2011
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00:21 < Gitch> Hey again all
00:21 < Gitch> Is the list of towns extracted from the osm data?
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05:32 < Mineque> hi
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07:38 < GuidO> hi
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07:40 < Guest99064> didnt found how to put a map (osm_bbox_-xxxxxxxxx.bin) on SDcard for Navit on Android
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08:44 < Gitch> Anyone able to help with how the town list is generated?
08:45 < anonymous_> good morning
08:45 < anonymous_> what device you are use ?
08:45 < anonymous_> Gitch ?
08:45 < Gitch> Afternoon ;)
08:46 < Gitch> I'm building on a Linux PC
08:46 < anonymous_> Afternoon ?
08:46 < Gitch> well it is here :P
08:46 < anonymous_> where are you live and how many clock is there ? ;)
08:46 < anonymous_> ok - which Linux distribution you use ?
08:46 < Gitch> australia, and 0340pm
08:46 < Gitch> at the moment i am using fedora
08:46 < anonymous_> nice
08:47 < anonymous_> hmmm
08:47 < anonymous_> i use only ubuntu
08:47 < anonymous_> what is the spezific problem with navit ?
08:47 < Gitch> i don't think the version of linux should matter
08:48 < Gitch> i am having problem with not being able to find a town in australia
08:49 < anonymous_> ok
08:49 < anonymous_> you use openstreetmap ?
08:49 < Gitch> yes
08:50 < kenguest> add it? *ducks*
08:50 < Gitch> ??
08:51 < Gitch> it is there in osm
08:51 < anonymous_> hmmmm - the simple answer is ..... this town is not in there
08:51 < anonymous_> i look
08:51 < anonymous_> the town calls ducks ?
08:52 < Gitch> no it's called karratha
08:52 < kenguest> well it's good weather for ducks here at the moment
08:53 < Guest99064> hi
08:54 < Guest99064> didnt found how to put a map from http://maps7.navit-project.org/ (osm_bbox_-xxxxxxxxx.bin) on SDcard for Navit on Android
08:54 < Gitch> its bad duck weather here
08:55 < anonymous_> moment please - i help Gitch .......
08:55 < Guest99064> ok
08:55 < anonymous_> Guest99064, are you a beginner pc-user ?
08:56 < Guest99064> @anonymous_ kind of
08:57 < anonymous_> ok
08:57 < anonymous_> do you have an sd card reader ?
08:58 < Guest99064> yes, from PC USB and sdcard mount
08:59 < anonymous_> ok
08:59 < anonymous_> what device (handy - smartphone) are you use ?
09:00 < anonymous_> Gitch, i look .......
09:00 < Guest99064> HTC Magic on froyo
09:00 < anonymous_> Gitch , karratha is on openstreetmap
09:01 < Gitch> yes anonymous_
09:02 < anonymous_> do you find there ?
09:02 < anonymous_> if you dont find - load this map http://maps2.navit-project.org/api/map/?bbox=110.5,-44.2,154.9,-9.2
09:03 < Guest99064> on my sdcard there is a folder "navit", but maybe it should be some subfolder ?
09:03 < anonymous_> ok Guest99064 - you have navit and load a openstreetmap card ?
09:03 < anonymous_> which card qould you like or where do you live (country)
09:03 < Gitch> i do find it on osm, but i will try the link... standby :)
09:05 < Guest99064> downloading France map from the app on wifi, take hours (67% in 2 hours)
09:05 < anonymous_> ok
09:05 < anonymous_> break there
09:05 < anonymous_> this download is bullshit (sorry - but there is it)
09:05 < anonymous_> i gave you a link
09:06 < anonymous_> the whole link (if you load everytime a nother map)
09:06 < anonymous_> http://maps2.navit-project.org/
09:07 < anonymous_> load this with your pc
09:07 < anonymous_> http://maps2.navit-project.org/api/map/?bbox=-5.45,42,8.44,51.68
09:07 < anonymous_> copy this from the pc to your sd card
09:08 < Guest99064> i did DL a map ( http://maps7.navit-project.org/api/map/?bbox=-5.0,47.0,0.1,49.3) on PC, and i did put it on my SDcard in sdcard/navit/osm_bbox_-5.0,47.0,0.1,49.3.bin but nothing show up
09:10 < anonymous_> moment
09:11 < anonymous_> you must rename the map in navitmap.bin
09:11 < anonymous_> then navit find the map
09:13 < anonymous_> works ?
09:14 < Guest99064> was outside :) for gps
09:14 < Guest99064> Wery well !
09:15 < Guest99064> should be on faq
09:15 < Guest99064> or i didnt see it
09:16 < Guest99064> afk a moment for a cigarette & gps testing
09:17 < anonymous_> ok
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09:30 < Guest99064> aback
09:31 < Guest99064> and now, is it possible to add personnal POI ?
09:31 < Gitch> anonymous_ , finally downloaded the map and it still doesn't show up in the town list... :(
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09:36 < Guest99064> @Gitch do you rename it as navitmap.bin ?
09:36 < Gitch> yeah
09:36 < Guest99064> that's all i know :)
09:36 < Gitch> haha thats cool
09:37 < Gitch> different problem my end ;)
09:42 < anonymous_> works now ?
09:44 < anonymous_> my navit crashed everytime
09:44 < anonymous_> so i have android 2.3 flashet
09:44 < anonymous_> now i look
09:44 < anonymous_> cucu
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10:39 < korrosa> Gitch: You there?
10:40 < korrosa> Gitch: Your problem is very likely answered on the wiki: http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/OpenStreetMap#Problems_with_OSM_and_navit_or_navigation_in_general
10:41 < korrosa> Also, everyone downloading maps from maps1, maps2, maps3 etc - please use http://maps.navit-project.org ONLY. It will re-redirect you to the closest/best performing maps server for your individual case.
10:48 < Gitch> i am here... brb though
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11:03 < Gitch_> hey karrosa!
11:03 < Gitch_> i thought it may have had something to do with that
11:03 < Gitch_> link
11:04 < Gitch_> but i am unsure of where to put the "is_in" tag
11:04 < Gitch_> more so how does navit get it's list of towns?
11:05 < Gitch_> on the navit drawn map, it shows the town name but doesn't allow searching to be done
11:05 < Gitch_> make sense?
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12:20 < korrosa> Gitch: That's right - a town will be shown on the map if it has a place=town (or city or whatever) tag. It will only be included in the search if it also has a corresponding is_in tag.
12:21 < korrosa> The is_in tag is used to classify the towns/cities/villages etc by country, to ensure that you're getting the correct country's results.
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12:29 < petrs> hi there
12:30 < petrs> I've run into a routing problem and collected some detailed instruction that could perhaps help debugging it. Is someone interested?
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12:33 < korrosa> petrs: Yes. Please either attach to an existing relevant ticket at http://trac.navit-project.org/ or start a new one!
12:33 < korrosa> Might be good to check the search for "rout": http://trac.navit-project.org/search?q=rout
12:35 < petrs> korrosa, I will do that. Though I asked here in hope that someone would be interested in trying it out right now - perhaps there's something obviously wrong there
12:41 < korrosa> I'm afraid I can't check anything on the computer I'm on at the moment - is it just a simple "Navit doesn't wanna route" problem?
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13:09 < petrs> korrosa, no, it's more like "why Navit prefers 3000 km driver over a 500km one"
13:09 < petrs> driver -> drive
13:38 < petrs> http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/876
13:42 < korrosa> petrs: That does indeed look odd!
13:44 < petrs> korrosa, yeah
13:44 < petrs> I was trying to demo Navit to a friend
13:44 < petrs> he said let's try Pilsen and then he just laugh
13:44 < petrs> this got to be fixed otherwise it's unusable
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14:09 < Gitch> Thanks Karrossa!! I will check that out...
14:09 < Gitch> bye
14:09 < Gitch> and thanks to all that helped :)
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14:10 < Mineque> korrosa: i see you got new name ;)
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14:36 < billk> Is there a repository of sample navit.xml files anywhere?
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17:01 < CIA-62> martin-s * r4511 /trunk/navit/navit/util.c: Fix:Core:pthread_sigmask not always available
17:22 < CIA-62> martin-s * r4512 /trunk/navit/navit/util.c: Fix:Core:g_time_val_to_iso8601 not available on older glibs
17:53 < playya__> moin
17:53 < playya__> do the .bin files contain height data?
17:54 < CIA-62> martin-s * r4513 /trunk/navit/navit/xpm/cursor2.png: Fix:xpm:Renamed to avoid overwriting from svg
17:55 < playya__> i want to reduce the vehicle speed based on the pitch of the track
18:01 < CIA-62> martin-s * r4514 /trunk/navit/navit/xpm/cursor.png: Fix:xpm:Renamed to avoid overwriting from svg
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18:20 < dijkstra> Hello everyone, I have a question regarding the routing principle that Navit is based on, has anyone ever tried to modify the route.c?
18:22 < dijkstra> More precisely, I'm trying to find a way to change the values that the Dijkstra algorithm takes in order for the software to take longer routes instead of the shortest
18:31 < Shred00> how are ETA estimates calculated with regard to speed of travel?  is speed actually measured, or implied in some manner?  even if measured, not all roads to the destination have the same speed limits.
18:35 < dijkstra> it takes the time used to drive a certain length which it calculates through               return over->len*36/speed+(dist ? dist->delay : 0);
18:35 < playya__> Shred00, if i understand the source code: route_time_seg
18:36 < playya__> in route.c
18:36 < Shred00> dijkstra: so it's sampling "current speed" then?
18:38 < dijkstra> as I understand it measures the maximum speed allowed
18:42 < Shred00> the map data has maximum speeds then?
18:43 < Shred00> the problem with those measurements (max allowed) is that they are not usually very accurate.  most people exceed the limits by some amount.  ideal is that over time the software actually learns how fast somebody drives on a given type of road, but a suitable second solution is simply to allow one to define the speed they will do when the posted speed is $n for various values of $n.
18:49 < dijkstra> the thing is even if you are using navit on a computer, without a gps connection, it makes a route based on these values, so it takes them theoretically
18:50 < dijkstra> so in this hypothetical scenario where you have a route drawn out, there must be a way to reroute it to not go the one and onl shortest route
18:51 < dijkstra> I'm sorry for bothering people but I thought it might be an interesting algorhitmical problem
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20:03 < curious> Shred00, this sounds like job for personal script . one can drive certain road with far lower speed than allowed plainly because there is i.e. heavy traffic on it
20:03 < curious> so i think only sane estimation _general_ gps software should assume should be this extracted from map data
20:03 < Shred00> curious: indeed!  which is why "learning" is so useful.
20:03 < curious> eventually some heuristics , like basing on max speed, surface:condition tags, etc
20:04 < curious> but this again calls for personal script
20:04 < curious> as i.e. someone with fast car and good brakes ignores speed limiting factors like frequent junctions or curves
20:04 < Shred00> curious: i'm not sure what you mean "personal script"
20:05 < curious> compared to someone with i.e. bike or heavy truck
20:05 < curious> well, this means software external from navit
20:05 < curious> it can use osm data , and recorded tracks
20:05 < curious> and perhaps even navit as 'relay' to display some OSD stuff (i.e. to plainly display 'max sane speed' readed once per second from text file)
20:06 < curious> i.e. note that 'learning' software would need excessive amount of recorded tracks, preferably access to internet database of such, etc.
20:06 < Shred00> curious: but it is meant to affect the ETA that navit calculates and displays so "personal script" is not really that useful, unless "personal scripts" can affect navit's internal processing.
20:06 < curious> well, it can modify routes
20:07 < curious> notice that navit accepts route modification
20:07 < curious> so it can affect navit's route calculation by modyfying routes, introducing delays, etc.
20:07 < Shred00> curious: indeed, it (navit) would, and should (pool the learning from all users).  but even without, if one travels portions of a given route multiple times, it can be used to make better ETAs for future routes.
20:07 < curious> or even creating 'shortcuts' as actually it can work two way
20:08 < curious> well, but again, this is job for EXTERNAL software
20:08 < curious> navit is good in itself as it accepts route modification from file
20:08 < curious> dynamic one
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20:09 < curious> notice that there are so many possible scenarios, external software is imho only sane way
20:09 < Shred00> curious: i'm not sure why you think it should be "external".  it would operate the same for everybody and only enhance functionality.  it's not something that has a "per person" variance.  sure, everyone drives differently, but the learning of one's driving habits is still the same from person to person.
20:09 < curious> starting from fact that databases will be regionalised, and some regions (i.e. europe) has already traffic databases, while some not, so there is no 'global' pool
20:10 < curious> nope, everyone has different needs
20:10 < Shred00> curious: i don't think you are really grasping what i am referring to.
20:10 < curious> even same type of car, but different type of person will have different driving preferences
20:11 < Shred00> the databases are only regional in so much as the database is built up by the driving experience of a number of people on a given (section) road at a given time of day.  actual speed limits are not a factor.  people's actual speed and time of day are the major factors.
20:11 < curious> well, currently calculating ETA is plain simple, and it's basic _example_ of how you can use it
20:11 < curious> it's opensource, so if you feel it needs extension, i suggest u to implement it to suit your needs
20:12 < Shred00> and sure, some people will drive slower than the average person and some will drive faster, but the majority of people will be average.
20:12 < curious> your proposition is imho not practical because 1)it requires large database
20:12 < curious> it makes it not useable for lots of ppl
20:12 < curious> database=storage. muti-user access database = network traffic
20:13 < curious> network traffic is often damn expensive, esp. if you travel via europe and use network via GSM providers with roaming...
20:14 < curious> well, your idea is surely good btw.
20:14 < curious> just well, notice you have tool for displaying result
20:14 < Shred00> curious: then one either (a) doesn't get the benefit of the data or (b) values it enough to spend the $$ or (c) programs his route while on wifi.
20:14 < curious> and well, external software for that actually extends it useability
20:14 < curious> as then it can be also used with other software
20:15 < playya__> is it possible to get the height of the start and the end of a struct route_segment_data?
20:15 < curious> it's just something totally offtopic from navit imho
20:15 < Shred00> curious: yes, that's a good point that i was just assuming to be implicit, but yes, this data should be open and sharable by multiple applications, both submitting and consuming.
20:15 < curious> and will just bloat code
20:15 < curious> same useless as displaying moon phase or implementing menstrual calendar
20:16 < curious> it surely affects ETA btw
20:17 < curious> yes, it would be great if such external 'maxspeed layer' calculator would be open
20:18 < curious> though given size of the project , amount of people who will wish to participate and move data around... i guess it'll spring as some paid service
20:18 < curious> btw. such services already exist in europe
20:20 < Shred00> some nominal fee might be required, but if it were nominal, it would be acceptable.  for example, here in north america, for people who have FOSS pvrs, Schedules Direct was set up to buy (wholesale) television listings and resell them to individuals for $20/yr.  very reasonable for the value it returns, imho.
20:20 < Shred00> on the other hand, simply being able to tell the GPS, "on a $m KM/h road i will drive $n" for various valued of $m provides pretty accurate results.
20:21 < Shred00> rather than having the GPS always calculate ETA based on $m.  that can be quite inaccurate for longer trips.  it can be out as much as an hour for 6-8h of travel.
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20:21 < Shred00> this alternate solution should be much more easily implementable.  :-)
20:22 < curious> yeah, but try to implement this and load of ppl will complain it's gives false estimates anyway...
20:23 < curious> but this time ETA error will not be 'too much'
20:23 < Shred00> curious: at least then though you can blame input.  bad input == bad output.  so it empowers people to get better estimates rather than everyone always getting bad estimates because nobody drives a roads prescribed speed limit.
20:23 < curious> well , actually... no
20:23 < curious> as currently ETA just gives you WORST CASE eta
20:24 < curious> assuming best case road conditions ofc
20:24 < curious> with your idea it will give you always 'best case' ETA
20:24 < Shred00> worst case == best estimate.  i am not interested in worst case, i am interested in best estimate.
20:24 < curious> and assuming best case road contitions... so notice you have two errors here summing up
20:24 < curious> other way round, they can at least try to cancel eachother...
20:25 -!- playya__ [~playya@unaffiliated/playya] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:25 < curious> well, yeah, this gives best estimate... and well, personally i'm interested in worst ;)
20:25 < Shred00> curious: have you actually tried using both estimating systems?  i have hands on experience with both and >95% of the time, being able to say $m KM/h actually means i will drive $n KM/h gives a far superior ETA.
20:25 < curious> well, some compromise could be providing additional 'best estimate' ETA
20:26 < Shred00> curious: if you are interested in worse case, then you make $n == $m or even less if you want even more worst case.
20:26 < curious> where in the world you live?
20:26 < curious> hehe, canada?
20:26 < Shred00> that's the power of letting the user define $m -> $n values.  they can tune it for the estimate they want
20:26 < curious> well, trust me ,in europe, roads are so congested even with worst estimate you can be HOURS late ;p
20:27 < curious> simple accident on highway means being stuck and delayed for few hours...
20:27 < Shred00> so if that's your experience then you make $n < $m for some value that you feel properly compensates for the congestion.  again, the power of configurability.
20:27 < curious> but yes, in case of canada indeed... best estimate could be usefull ;)
20:28 < curious> but then notice ETA should be more external to navit ... it's broad subject...
20:28 < Shred00> it can work everywhere, not just canada.  over time, you will discover that "on average" when a road's max is $m i can drive $n and then you configure that value.
20:28 < curious> actually here, in europe... calculating eta is far more complex than that
20:28 < curious> sometimes just getting out of the small city means ~3-4 hours
20:28 < curious> and this is just ~50km
20:29 < curious> that's why the commercial route planning software with access to traffic databases are so popular here
20:29 < curious> one bad decision and bang...
20:29 < curious> stuck in jam for hours
20:30 < curious> not really
20:30 < Shred00> yes, of course, live traffic is the panacea.  but as you say, network can be expensive, or non-existent even, for non-3G capable devices.
20:30 < curious> peak hours...
20:30 < curious> some roads are perfectly clean in some hours
20:30 < curious> while at some they let you go with 10km/h
20:30 < Shred00> so a reasonable fall back is being able to take an estimate based on the speed you hope to drive on certain types of roads.
20:30 < curious> yeah, but point is... calculating ETA is damn complex , and should be quite external from navit because
20:31 < curious> navit does NOT block way for such software
20:31 < curious> it allows live updates of map state
20:31 < curious> and this is quite enough
20:31 < Shred00> so, is there some documentation on this "external" interface?
20:31 < curious> read on 'traffic distortion'
20:32 < curious> there is no 'interface' - you provide just distortion.txt file which is included when re-calculating route
20:32 < curious> it can include all way of distortions , including wormholes ;)
20:32 < CIA-62> rikky * r4515 /trunk/navit/navit/ (file.c map/binfile/binfile.c): Fix:core:Fixed crashes after downloading map data
20:32 < curious> well, sorry, actually wormholes are not possible ;)
20:33 < CIA-62> rikky * r4516 /trunk/navit/navit/cache.c: Fix:core:Fixed crashes after downloading map data
20:33 < CIA-62> rikky * r4517 /trunk/navit/navit/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Fix:core:Fix some warnings
20:36 < curious> in your case script should just record your gps tracks, compare them with osm data , identify roads, and construct distorion.txt with just same roads , but including maxspeed tag based on speed extracted from your gps logs
20:37 < curious> if it's also very big, it should perhaps compile distortion.txt into distortion.bin and such file should be included in navit.xml just like distortion.txt
20:39 < curious> btw. another benefit of it being external
20:39 < curious> is that instead of computing it on your gps device
20:40 < curious> you can just upload your gps tracks to some server , where also other ppl upload theirs
20:40 < curious> and script can be run there, using this data
20:40 < curious> then u can just download distortion.bin
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20:56 < playya_> is it possible to import http://openmtbmap.org data to get 3d maps for navit?
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21:06 < curious> playya_, as far as i remember navit's support for garmin maps might be broken atm, but it might changed
21:07 < playya_> hmm. ok :(
21:07 < curious> playya_, but procedure for using them should be same
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21:07 < playya_> i need 3d maps to navigate around hills
21:07 < curious> and i think there was faq entry about using garmin maps
21:07 < playya_> but i don't own any garmin maps (yet)
21:08 < curious> openmtbmaps are distributed in form of garmin maps...
21:08 < curious> btw. as they claim they're open
21:08 < curious> you could ask them for shipping them to u in pure .osm format which u can convert to navit's format
21:09 < curious> but then again, i am not sure how navit will display contour data, i somehow doubt it will be 'true 3d'
21:10 < curious> also i quite bet it will be not included in route planning
21:10 < curious> either way quite cool project
21:11 < curious> i guess if guys from openmtbmaps will ship .osm files some way to display them will be worked up :)
21:28 < playya_> openmtbmap uses srtm data
21:31 < playya_> are there already fields to add the data to the maps?
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21:40 < curious> i think there were height tags, but i am not sure how to do it properly, sorry :(
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22:04 < korrosa> playya_: Navit does NOT take 3D data into account when routing.
22:04 < korrosa> However, you can use the Garmin maps to show you contour data (I think this happened using the default layout, so no modification is necessary).
22:07 < playya_> korrosa, but it's possible to use 3d data?
22:07 < playya_> i only see 2d coords
22:07 < korrosa> playya_: No. 3D data is not in any OSM data, so the binfiles do not include it.
22:07 < playya_> yes
22:08 < playya_> but maybe it's possible to patch e.g. maptool to add the data from a srtm file to the osm data
22:09 < korrosa> Go right ahead! :) But by default, it's not possible.
22:09 < playya_> it would break the binary format
22:15 < korrosa> Shred00, curious: Perhaps sum up your thoughts at http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/417 ? Would be useful!
22:16 < Shred00> ahh.  _have_ to register/sign-in to add comments?
22:17 < korrosa> Note that Navit can already display real average speed on an OSD, so using it for ETA shouldn't be too much of a step. Obviously, you guys were discussing more complex ideas, so it's a good idea to note them down!
22:17 < korrosa> Shred00: I think so. I use my Navit wiki details.
22:18 < Shred00> korrosa: i was just not sure as i've used other trac implementations where they allow posting without an account/login.  i like that.  one less set of the (way too) many credentials i already have.
22:19 < korrosa> Shred00: If you have a type of OpenID login, then you can use that. See the options here: http://trac.navit-project.org/openidlogin
22:19 < Shred00> yeah.  openid'd in already.  :-)
22:19 < korrosa> Also, you may be able to comment without signing in - I've just never tried it.
22:35 < Shred00> i don't think so.  the comment box only appeared after i openid'd
22:40 < korrosa> TIL.
22:41 < korrosa> Shred00: I sort of use your first option myself with Navit.
22:42 < Shred00> korrosa: maybe you can add to the ticket, explaining how you do it?
22:43 < korrosa> route_weight in a vehicle profile takes a speed in km/h. This is used to calculate optimum routes. I actually set these speeds to what I _think_ are average speeds, not actual speeds, so the routing should take this into account.
22:43 < korrosa> This only really works in the area within which you're familiar. It also (if I remember) didn't actually change the ETA.
22:44 < korrosa> So it's not quite a solution for you.
22:45 < korrosa> I gave up on the ETA thing when I wrote that ticket (I was tiiiim in another life!), and now just use the remaining distance and average speed and do some mental maths.
22:45 < Shred00> tbh, i have not taken a look at the xml files available.  i use navit on android so it's less than friendly to try to go poking about.
22:50 < korrosa> Shred00: So I hear! From what I understand, you can overwrite the default one if you put one at /sdcard/navit/navit.xml. http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Navit_on_Android#navit.xml
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23:51 < curious> they will be lost... like tears... in the rain... ;) (busy/gtg)
--- Log closed Wed Jun 08 00:00:36 2011