--- Log opened Mon Jun 20 00:00:37 2011
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02:55 < xinzhao_> I have Registered on the wiki, got a  username and password,but i donnot know how to login for a trac
02:56 < xinzhao_> in this page http://trac.navit-project.org/, I click OpenID Login butten on the top right, but alwayse get this page http://trac.navit-project.org/openidlogin
02:57 < xinzhao_> How can I use  http://trac.navit-project.org/openidlogin?
02:57 < xinzhao_> can anyone help me ?
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03:20 < xinzhao> I am black-ss yesterday, I have questions about compiling Navit on rhel5 or opensuse for wince
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03:25 < xinzhao> Sorry for my so bad net
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06:29 <@Horwitz> morgen
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09:32 < Number6> Morning
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09:52 < tryagain> curious Bookmark and POI lists should be pageable in current Navit builds since November, 2010. I think you really have some display resolution issues as you wrote earlier. May be Number6 will help?
10:06 < Number6> tryagain: It is pagable. And works on a Treo 750
10:30 < Number6> Which has a very small screen, compared to most.
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11:49 < curious> how can i debug/change that?
11:55 < curious> i use lark 50.1 and it has 480x272 resolution
11:55 < curious> though buttons and stuff get positioned ok
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13:19 < tryagain> curious You should have two buttons with left and right arrows at the bottom of Bookmark and POI lists tagged as Prev and Next.
13:22 < woglinde> tryagain hms that remembers me that in the route description Prev and Next need to be localized too
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13:43 < tryagain> woglinde you're welcome to change lines 5880, 5887 of gui_internal.c ;)
14:02 < woglinde> I know
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15:02 < curious> hmm, btw. slow scrolling
15:03 < curious> couldn't rendering be simplified for the moment of scrolling?
15:03 < curious> i.e. just labels, road outlines and no fills of polygons
15:03 < curious> perhaps also no icons... just 'wireframe' map
15:04 < curious> also, is it possible to enable subpixel rendering of black elements and text?
15:10 < curious> also, ad the locking button, i have it implemented now following korrosa's suggestion, but is there also way to change the button shape according to the menu_on_map_click state?
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15:11 < curious> and another small problem - how one adds poi items being displayed? i.e. there are stuff like benches on the map , but no wlan networks
15:13 < curious> i would like to add those and also pehraps define set of filters i.e. gas stations are not really interesting while on bike, while bicycle shops are not really interesting while in car
15:14 < curious> though separate config files to achieve it are fine too, as i can just swap sd card in gps device when changing vehicle , it's actually even quicker than clicking somewhere
15:17 < curious> tryagain, ad those scrolling buttons @ bottom - no avail , dunno why
15:17 < tryagain> no avail = not displayed or not clickable
15:18 < tryagain> ?
15:18 < curious> ah. i have those in poi list
15:18 < curious> clickable
15:19 < tryagain> Then you should have ones in Bookmarks list if you have enough bookmarks created.
15:19 < curious> ah. thx
15:20 < tryagain> Buttons appear only if there are more items in the list than can be displayed.
15:20 < curious> yes, but somehow not in the address search menu
15:20 < tryagain> Yes, address search menu doesnt have ones
15:23 < curious> ok, scrollable bookmarks and poi's are good enough, one can always just try to narrow search bit more
15:23 < curious> btw. is there way to change size of the on-screen keyboard?
15:24 < curious> also there is option to choose 'special' characters, but it allows selecting just one , quite limited set
15:24 < curious> which in case of not be able to scroll the search list, and if special char is required to narrow search, leaves one in no-go situation
15:25 < tryagain> kbd size is autodetected. Can you describe your problems/ suggest some ideas?
15:26 < tryagain> What special chars do you need? It's quite easy to add some while we have enough space on the keyboard.
15:26 < tryagain> Btw if you're interested in address and POI search you may test patch from http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/859
15:27 < curious> hmm, ad kbd size (and layout) - 1)at least few basic layouts could be handy, i.e. qwerty , preferably configurable somewhere in some config file reachable by user... as one could put i.e. most frequently used national chars there aswell, or choose qwerty/dvorak
15:28 < curious> keyboard size change would allow more space for i.e. search results , esp. if device has large enough screen or user can use pointer instead of fingers . i think this would be aswell good enough to be just modify-able via some config file
15:28 < tryagain> Idea with kbd seems to be good candidate for trac. It will take some time to do it but it worth it.
15:29 < curious> ad special chars - i use czech, polish and german lands, and they all have own set of chars. stuff like ? (very frequently used polish char) is missing
15:30 < tryagain> Got a question sign here :)
15:31 < curious> hum, ad the size of keyboard - u say it's autodetected - wouldn't it be somehow easy to at least temporaily allow for user to override this autodetection by some navit.xml set variable?
15:33 < tryagain> I was thinking to change the way diacritical chars presented. I.e. you press some modifier key, get list of possible diacritical signs, then select a letter to apply that modification. Would it be handy for day-to-day use?
15:33 < curious> also it seems to ignore font size and i think also 'atom' could be simply defined in config file
15:34 < curious> so the 'size autodetection' code could try to fit as many 'keys' as possible in x/y limits , assuming a char size (and assuming plain square keys)
15:34 < curious> generally there is no setting for 'keyboard font size'
15:35 < curious> ad the modifier key - it is method used by xvkbd
15:35 < curious> and as diacrical chars are very rarely used in sequences, it works quite fine
15:36 < curious> still, this works ok just for some languages, like polish
15:36 < curious> where there are normal chars, and their 'diacrical' counterparts, like l and ? , s and ? , o and ?
15:36 < tryagain> Then for some there will be difficulties using it?
15:37 < curious> and it still has z which can take form of either ? or ? which on qwerty layout is mapped to alt-z or alt-x
15:37 < curious> yes, i.e. czech is even worse
15:37 < curious> they have similiar subsets like ? and ? for almost every char
15:38 < curious> i think current 'switching' method is ok
15:39 < curious> i think ideal idea would be to create 'custom' charset which would dynamically self-define
15:39 < curious> so, you switch to this 'alt' set from main keyboard layout via 'special' button
15:40 < tryagain> What if we redo search that it removes diacritical from both search string and attributes? Just like it removes case: A->a.
15:40 < curious> and there u have 'most frequently used' list of chars, plus few flags underneath
15:40 < curious> i.e. one line of flags , which would call another sets of 'special' charsets
15:41 < curious> if one chooses char from any those 'extra' screens, they get remembered , and put on the 'most frequently used' special keyboard set
15:41 < curious> the redo search thing is very good method
15:42 < curious> it is very comfortable, i think google , and many other search engines are using it
15:42 < curious> it saves trouble of clicking anything 'special' and searching for some weird character and key
15:42 < tryagain> Nice idea with "most frequently used", with but it seems to be hardly useable 'coz of its dynamically changing order of chars.
15:43 < curious> yes, this sounds like adding few extra variables, reserving extra mem for array, etc.
15:43 < curious> i think the 'redo search' is much more simple and in practice it should work much better
15:44 < curious> actually even though i do have my 'polish' keyboard somehow installed on few linux machines in my home, i very seldom type any special chars in i.e. search engines
15:45 < curious> same goes when i do german or czech searches, esp. sometimes i do not even know if i correctly interpet the 'special' char
15:46 < curious> as i.e. in czech it's easy to confuse their 'added .' from added ,'
15:46 < tryagain> But it unfortunately may appear unuseable on low-resource devices. Now we use a self-cut version of lib library for e.g. WinCE devices, and Unicode processing stuff seems to be the largest skipped part of it.
15:46 < tryagain> lib=glib
15:47 < curious> yeah, on my 'lark' which has '300something' cpu search is indeed damn slow
15:47 < curious> you can see the list building, line-per-second or even two
15:48 < tryagain> What do you have for POI listing perfomance?
15:49 < curious> but well, it is still faster to do search than typing some german street names ;)
15:49 < curious> poi listing takes ~3 secs, actually suprisingly fast
15:51 < curious> though instead of 'get more ...' just clicking 'next' should expand list
15:52 < tryagain> That time difference may be because street tries to build the list "on the fly", using some dark magic with timers.
15:53 < tryagain> agreed, with "get more..." but... If you create a ticket for that then it will be fixed at some time ;)
15:53 < curious> i have no account yet, and i feel i'll forget to do that ... and i think it's minor problem actually
15:54 < curious> i think more usefull would be 'wireframe map scrolling' , as scrolling performance is really annoying
15:54 < curious> generally redrawing map, esp. if it's some kind of city is very slow
15:55 < curious> compared to all other gps software i've tried on this device, it's slowest
15:56 < curious> sure it's snail-slow device, but all other programs were achieving at least 3-5 fps, and in 3d mode
15:56 < tryagain> I'd suppose that your perfomance problems may be relaed to background processing of tasks, to the way internal navit's idle scheduler works, not to actual perfomance of the device. Because you get quite good results for one-step operations like POI list listing.
15:57 < curious> navit is somewhere below 1fps...
15:57 < curious> yes, it quite looks like that , as one does not see how it redraws map
15:57 < curious> it just pops up instantenously, like navit would sitting idle
15:58 < curious> also, when it gets fix, and map gets rotated, it's also suprisingly fast
15:58 < tryagain> I'd like to ping Number6 here to see if he can sched some light on Navit idle scheduling esp. on WinCE.
15:59 < curious> even if one navigates in dense city area
15:59 < curious> btw. calculating ~60km route takes ~5 seconds, sometimes even faster
15:59 < curious> though i guess it's hardly a measure coz it depends on too many factors
16:00 < curious> btw. is there any way to enable antyaliasing/subpixel rendering
16:01 < tryagain> If that route starts or ends in enough big City, it's a measure, i think.
16:01 < curious> at least for some items, like text...
16:01 < curious> though i have feeling something is generally broken with how lines are drawn
16:01 < curious> as they seem very distorted
16:01 < tryagain> Don't know, I never looked so deep in graphics code.
16:01 < curious> bit like it was drawn on much larger canvas, and then scaled down
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16:02 < curious> well, comparing to other gps software i used on this device, and none of it used even antialiasing, navit's display looks plainly ugly
16:03 < tryagain> Never seen that effects, for me everyhting looks quite good.
16:04 < Number6> tryagain: idle scheduling?
16:04 < Number6> curious: No to sub pixel, so I've been told. Acous raised a ticket about it, and I was told no
16:05 < Number6> The OSD does look fairly rough and ugly, which is a pity
16:05 < tryagain> When we build search results we refer to some idle_callback functions. I feel that they got called from graphics driver.
16:05 < curious> i think if someone would be so kind to raise ticket about creating 'wireframe' scrolling (scrolling mode optimised for crap devices) , stuff like idle scheduling and responsivity problems would be resolved within the subject
16:06 < curious> hmm, osd looks fine for me
16:07 < curious> pity about subpixel, i think it would be use at least for text labels, and on more powerfull devices it would increase eye comfort in general
16:07 < Number6> curious: It *may* be possible, but from what I remember, no
16:08 < tryagain> Number6 probably look for SystemIdleTimerReset in graphics_win32.c?
16:10 < Number6> tryagain: Probably. I'm not allowed touch any navit code until I get a letter from my new employer saying that I can work with Navit
16:11 < tryagain> even when you're at home?
16:11 < Number6> Yep
16:11 < Number6> Hence why I need that clarified
16:12 < curious> even from some anon account ? :p
16:13 < curious> ok, thank u guys, i gtg... and thanx for all the good work, even though i came to mainly point shortcomings in general navit is very intuitive in use and very good in general
16:13 < tryagain> wild capitalistic exploitation. Where are al those trade uinions...
16:15 < tryagain> curious your testing is very appreciated and not to lost it please do some postings on trac! Se you!
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17:30 < helmut> hi. when I convert a germany.osm.bz2 to the navit format using maptool svn4494 (debian sid) large parts of germany appear as water. is this a known problem? is there a workaround?
17:36 < helmut> this is probably http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/544
17:37 < helmut> and http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/745
17:39 < helmut> looks like this was reported 5 days ago on irc ;-)
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17:41 < helmut> hi tryagain_. i just found irc logs from 5 days ago with "watered" maps.
17:42 < tryagain_> helmut its not a bug, its weather forecast!
17:42 < tryagain_> ;)
17:42 < helmut> i am hit by the same thing
17:42 < helmut> while converting germany.osm.bz2 from cloudmade
17:43 < helmut> do you happen to know a workaround?
17:43 < tryagain_> no workaround yet. Probably this will not happen with planet.bin though...
17:44 < helmut> given the size of germany my guessed estimate for planet would be in the order of 100G
17:44 < tryagain_> Do you use more than one map?
17:45 < helmut> no. just germany
17:45 < helmut> also note that not all germany is under water
17:45 < tryagain_> Sometimes I got this disappear then I remove unused maps. But not always.
17:45 < helmut> for instance hamburg is fine. bremen is half watered.
17:46 < tryagain_> At different zoomlevels watering seems to be different for me.
17:46 < helmut> let me try
17:46 < helmut> indeed. but only slightly
17:48 < tryagain_> Watering seems to be caused by skipping some random pieces from osm data when it gets extracted. So you have just a piece of river bank so it floods with water everything around it.
17:49  * helmut just noticed that the zooming out gives a much more useful display than a year ago (shows big cities). congrats!
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17:50 < tryagain_> I thnink planet.bin is less than 10G. But unsure.
17:50 < helmut> that would imply that germany provides much more bits per square meter.
17:51 -!- Prz_^ [~ju@231.109.103.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #navit
17:51 < helmut> and with luck I'll be adding even more bits. :-)
17:59  * helmut also just noticed that osm is not only detailed it is also recent. for instance removed cash machines are removed in recent maps. :-)
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18:09 < dandor> hi tryagain
18:13 < dandor> tryagain_, ping
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18:49 < korrosa> curious: In answer to your "skeleton map" question - make one yourself! It's super easy - the way a map is displayed on the screen is defined by the layout (http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Layout).
18:50 < korrosa> You can add and remove nodes, ways and polygons/areas to create your own custom layout.
18:52 < korrosa> To see which Navit poi is mapped to which OSM poi, see item_def.h in the source code, or here on the wiki: http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Item_def.h
18:54 < korrosa> And tryagain : I actually used your poi name search feature yesterday whilst on a tour, and it worked a treat!
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19:17 < antenna1> korrosa: did you copy and paste all the different c files from the patch of ticket #859 or is there a different way to extract them?
19:18 < korrosa> patch -p0 < poi_filter_with_address_search4.diff
19:19 < korrosa> (After you've navigated to your navit src folder. Note that this is two levels in from the trunk, i.e. trunk/navit/navit)
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19:24 < dandor> korrosa, ping
19:26 -!- OwenLA7QZ [~OwenLA7QZ@server.nowhere-else.org] has joined #navit
19:27 < OwenLA7QZ> Hello. Is there anybody out there?
19:31 < korrosa> dandor, pong
19:31 < korrosa> OwenLA7QZ, yes, many people - just ask your question!
19:31 < korrosa> antenna1: Did that help?
19:33 < OwenLA7QZ> Hi Just finally got Navit working in Natty on my Eee.
19:33 < OwenLA7QZ> Wish I'd known about this channel before I started!
19:33 < antenna1> korrosa: thanks, it did. But the directory was trunk/navit/. Do you recommend to process your own maps with maptool to get the most out of the new feature?
19:33 < dandor> hi  korrosa
19:34 < dandor> korrosa, are you interested in string concatenation operator in the command system?
19:34 < korrosa> antenna1: Yes, definitely process your own maps!
19:34 < korrosa> dandor: Um, maybe - what funky stuff can I do with it?
19:35 < OwenLA7QZ> Took be a long time to figure out I had to DISABLE the default map to get my downloaded openstreetmaps bin to work...
19:35 < dandor> so you can write something like  "wifi_" + "2" +".png"  etc
19:35 < korrosa> OwenLA7QZ: I also run on Ubuntu, so feel free to ask for any advice. Also, make sure you're aware of the wiki!
19:36 < dandor> or from variable
19:37 < dandor> korrosa -> prv
19:37 < OwenLA7QZ> OK korrosa. Only thing I can think of now is how to force a route to go via certain points. We're going from Michigan to Virginia for July 4th weekend. Get diferent driving directions from what Google maps gave.
19:38 < OwenLA7QZ> Will have to decide which route to use and then make them the same as we won't be running the netbook for the whole trip, just for where navigation gets tricky.
19:38 < antenna1> korrosa:  are there any additional pois? I read sth about a new lamp button and can't see it, but I changed the structure of the main menu and removed some parts - this might the problem
19:38 < korrosa> OwenLA7QZ: Short answer - you can't. Yet.
19:39 < OwenLA7QZ> The Navit Route "looks" longer...
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19:40 < OwenLA7QZ> I'm assuming Navit does _not_ need to be onine to create a route? So I should be able to follow the Google Maps route and make a new one from wherever I am in Navit without Internet connection?
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19:41 < antenna1> OwenLA7QZ: that's right. Navit is based on real time vector navigation
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19:42 < korrosa> antenna1: The lamp should display instead of one of the "?" buttons, and shouldn't be affected by any of your changed to the menu, as far as I know.
19:42 < OwenLA7QZ> OK. Thanks antenna1. I'll take it out for a drive the next few days and then come back here when I have more questions. So far it looks good. (Once I finally figured out the configuration.)
19:44 < antenna1> OwenLA7QZ: I'm a natty user myself, so feel free to ask
19:45 < OwenLA7QZ> Good to know you guys are here, antenna1. I'll be getting a Viewsonic Viewpad 7 to use for Navit in a couple of weeks, but not in time for our trip to Virginia.
19:45 < korrosa> Gah, you hipsters with your updated Ubuntus....
19:46 < OwenLA7QZ> ..... Got rid of "Unity" pretty fast. Totally screwed up the graphics on the wife's dell. On my Eee it just confused the heck out of me...
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19:47 < OwenLA7QZ> apart from that, natty runs just fine on my 16gb Eee900. Got a 32Gb micro sd for file storage.
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19:48 < OwenLA7QZ> OK guys. THanks for your replies. Got to take the dogs for a walk. I'll be back when I have more questions.
19:48 < antenna1> Unity has alot of potential, but it there needs alot to be done
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19:49 < OwenLA7QZ> Yes, a lot to be done for sure. I had problems finding a lot of stuff.
19:49 < OwenLA7QZ> OK, Got to go. Dogs are giving me _that_ look. Bye
19:50 < antenna1> I installed natty with unity on my parents pc and if all programs are on the launcher they can handle ubuntu better than winXp!
19:50 < antenna1> bye
19:50 < korrosa> OwenLA7QZ: Good luck!
19:51 < korrosa> antenna1: Still no luck with the light bulb icon?
19:53 < antenna1> korrosa: I found it, but the bulb is right next to the question mark and didn't replace it
19:54 < korrosa> Before the bulb I had two question marks!
19:54 < Number6> that's just bad
19:54 < korrosa> One for "other" pois, and one for "unknown" pois...!!
19:54 < antenna1> korrosa: yeah, I just recognized you wrote "one of", damn it
19:57 -!- marienz_ is now known as marienz
19:58 < korrosa> Number6: What's bad? Also, curious had some probs with the OSD text item on WinCE to display road names. Working for you?
20:01 < Number6> On the main layout, that has the arrows, etc?
20:01 < Number6> Yeah, it does
20:07 < antenna1> what's your gps receiver?
20:09 < Number6> Mine? A WinCE piece of crap :-)
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20:11 < antenna1> I actually meant external ones like an usb dongle
20:13 < antenna1> korrosa: where do you download your maps from? osm.org seems to be pretty slow
20:13 < korrosa> geofabrik.de
20:14 < korrosa> antenna1: http://download.geofabrik.de/osm/
20:26 < korrosa> antenna1: They guy who runs geofabrik has all those extracts set to update _every_ day, so they're never more than 24 hours old.
20:28 < antenna1> korrosa: According to the wikie the files don't need to be extracted, do they? I downloaded a .bz2 file and it seems to be way bigger when extracted
20:29 < korrosa> antenna1: You don't need to extract it to process with maptool.#
20:30 < korrosa> However, I suggest you use the .pbf filetype.
20:30 < korrosa> Then: maptool -P -i your_input_file.osm.pbf your_output_file.osm.bin
20:30 < Number6> antenna1: The extracted files are about 30x larger then the compressed files. XML is very good at being compressed
20:30 < antenna1> wow
20:33 < antenna1> what does that -P parameter do? It seems unavailable in the repository version of natty
20:33 < korrosa> -P tells maptool that you've fed it a .pbf file.
20:34 < korrosa> Added in SVN r3871
20:34 < korrosa> http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/OpenStreetMap#From_.pbf
20:34 < antenna1> rep is 3501
20:34 < korrosa> Woah, old school!
20:35 < korrosa> OK, well, then you're stuck with the bz2 files.
20:35 < antenna1> exactly,  I was just too lazy to install it manually on my desktop
20:35 < korrosa> bzcat my_OSM_map.osm.bz2 | maptool my_Navit_map.bin
20:36 < antenna1> are non-readable signs normal when processing?
20:38 < antenna1> ok,  works with your bzcat command
20:38 < antenna1> guess, this is going to take a while
20:38 < korrosa> Mine? You've been naughty and not read the wiki http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/OpenStreetMap#From_.bz2 !!
20:39 < korrosa> Takes me about 15 mins for the Great Britain extract
20:40 < antenna1> sorry, it's because I first tried to extract
20:40 < antenna1> well, that depends on your pc
20:41 < korrosa> Lol, no problem!
20:41 < korrosa> antenna1: 15 mins on acer one. Very underpowered!
20:41 < korrosa> Also, make sure you have enough hard drive space!
20:42 < antenna1> yup, about 2 minutes on my desktop. My netbook has 250 gigs, that should be enough
20:43 < antenna1> but it's only bavaria
20:43 < antenna1> and the .bin file is only one third of the .bz2 file!
20:47 < korrosa> Because it's binary, which is far more efficient (in terms of size) than plain text files.
20:47 < korrosa> .pbf files are basically binary versions of the bz2 files for OSM.
20:51 < korrosa> (Well, binary versions of the OSM xml...)
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21:11 < antenna1> thanks for your support korrosa. well, bedtime, n8
21:11 < korrosa> No problem!
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21:15 < Number6> Uggh, my GPS is too far away to reach it - and I'm too lazy to get up
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--- Log closed Tue Jun 21 00:00:37 2011