--- Log opened Fri Nov 30 00:00:22 2012
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13:12 #navit: < MatthiasM> hi
13:12 #navit: < woglinde> hi
13:12 #navit: < MatthiasM> can anybody please tell me if this sketch is correct? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:NAVIT_components.svg
13:13 #navit: < woglinde> why you asking?
13:13 #navit: < MatthiasM> I try to figure out the raw architecture of NAVIT
13:13 #navit: < woglinde> hm I wonder why it is on the osm site
13:14 #navit: < woglinde> navit uses bridge patter for most parts
13:14 #navit: < MatthiasM> because currently I have no account over at NAVIT wiki ;)
13:14 #navit: < woglinde> pattern
13:14 #navit: < MatthiasM> how in C only?
13:14 #navit: < woglinde> ?
13:15 #navit: < MatthiasM> AFAIK bridge is OOP coding style?
13:15 #navit: < MatthiasM> and AFAIK NAVIT is coded in pure C?
13:15 #navit: < woglinde> ? who says that?
13:15 #navit: < MatthiasM> thought I read that some time ago...
13:18 #navit: < MatthiasM> but saw even Java code for the Android fork oO
13:18 #navit: < woglinde> uhm no the java/android code was in navit
13:18 #navit: < woglinde> the ios code too
13:19 #navit: < MatthiasM> ah ok
13:22 #navit: < MatthiasM> BTW there are no unit tests, or?
13:28 #navit: < MatthiasM> Is there somekind of similar component or class diagram?
13:41 #navit: < woglinde> hm
13:41 #navit: < woglinde> not really
13:42 #navit: < woglinde> and yes there are not unit test
13:42 #navit: < MatthiasM> no problem :)
13:42 #navit: < woglinde> ah okay one hint
13:43 #navit: < MatthiasM> ?
13:43 #navit: < woglinde> all plugin stuff is bridge pattern
13:44 #navit: < MatthiasM> makes sens. I saw the basic dicovery methods....
13:44 #navit: < woglinde> http://navit.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/navit/trunk/navit/navit/plugin.h?revision=3966&view=markup
13:44 #navit: < woglinde> look at the enum
13:44 #navit: < woglinde> plugin_type
13:44 #navit: < MatthiasM> yeah
13:44 #navit: < woglinde> ;)
13:45 #navit: < woglinde> I wanted to start making routing enging a plugin too
13:45 #navit: < woglinde> but never found the time
13:45 #navit: < MatthiasM> Well yesterday I came up with the idea to ask about a funded NAVIT refactoring. What do you think?
13:46 #navit: < woglinde> you should ask cp15 about it
13:46 #navit: < woglinde> but what you would refactor?
13:47 #navit: < MatthiasM> first, I'm definitly the right coder for such stuff ;) NAVIT community has it's own experts :)
13:47 #navit: < MatthiasM> Maybe this shows the general idea: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:!i!/NAVIT2
13:47 #navit: < MatthiasM> in short: Improving the OSM <-> NAVT teamwork :)
13:53 #navit: < woglinde> hm
13:53 #navit: < woglinde> as I said write cp15 an email
13:53 #navit: < woglinde> but be aware it can last some time until cp15 answers
13:54 #navit: < MatthiasM> oh ok. He's still busy?
13:59 #navit: < MatthiasM> BTW who was the one, that cleaned up the NAVIT wiki?
14:00 #navit: < woglinde> sorry dont knoe
14:00 #navit: < woglinde> maybee look at the history
14:00 #navit: < MatthiasM> I tried but it's spammed with fake users :(
14:00 #navit: < MatthiasM> NP doesn't matter
14:06 #navit: < MatthiasM> But maybe you can tell me about the NAVIT community internals?
14:15 #navit: < woglinde> what internals?
14:22 #navit: < MatthiasM> basically the structure. So wiki and readme say about 3 maintainers? Who is who and how is the rest of the community composed (e.g. people porting to platforms?)
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17:05 #navit: < MatthiasM> sad, no maintainer right here :(
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18:42 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Hi @xenos1984 :)
18:43 #navit: < xenos1984> hi MatthiasM1 ;)
18:43 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I spent some time to draw this sketch http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:NAVIT_components.svg
18:43 #navit: < MatthiasM1> maybe you could take a look?
18:44 #navit: < xenos1984> i saw your diagram already a few minutes ago, looks quite nice and as far as i know, it fits the architecture of navit quite well
18:44 #navit: < MatthiasM1> no idea if it makes sense to add more details (want try to avoid that it will look like a chaotic UML ;))
18:45 #navit: < MatthiasM1> sadly I couldn't get in contact with someone of the coreteam. Everybody seems to be busy :(
18:48 #navit: < MatthiasM1> What I currently didn't finaly understand is why NAVIT state is at it is? So for example I thought there was a usability campaign months (or years?) ago?
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21:02 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Hi, I be back :)
21:05 #navit: < xenos1984_> wb ;)
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21:07 #navit: < MatthiasM1> danke :)
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21:07 #navit: < tryagain> MatthiasM1 Hi. What I don't understand from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:!i!/NAVIT2 is what internal limitations you're talk about. I think there's no need for general redesign to reach any of goals stated.
21:07 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hi tryagain, sure with pleasure :)
21:08 #navit: < MatthiasM1> first I have to say that this is an external impression, so I'm not familar with the codebase itself
21:09 #navit: < MatthiasM1> So when I see NAVIT from a somewhat enduser perspective,  it currently has limitations (adress search, POI infos, usability, ...). I assume that this are results of the long development time and so internal problems?
21:10 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but of course maybe I'm wrong?
21:12 #navit: < tryagain> I think you're wrong. As for POI, it's quite simple to redesign it in the way you want. Just suggest an idea and let's look.
21:13 #navit: < MatthiasM1> great :)
21:14 #navit: < MatthiasM1> But maybe what is more important is the usability as a whole? I have often the impression, that NAVIT was not designed with Smartphones etc. in mind (which is abs. logic as in 2005 nobody expected that developments ;))
21:14 #navit: < xenos1984> the POI search really isn't that bad - i think one can improve it (maybe finer categories, like on my Garmin - when i choose to search for food, i can enter the cuisine, or the first letter of the restaurant etc.)
21:14 #navit: < xenos1984> i'm not 100% sure about the current status, but i remember that address search using OSM data used to be based on is_in tags, and when these are missing, an estimate on the size of the city by its population
21:14 #navit: < tryagain> Address search also can be improved. Currently we do not have much support for it in binfile format itself. And probably we shouldnt use same data structures to have access for local area to display it onscreen and to look globally for an address.
21:15 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yeah maybe a spin of index section or simlar...
21:16 #navit: < tryagain> I was thinking to steal address data from Nominatim. It's quite a big and resource hangry project which allows to do a reasonable address search.
21:16 #navit: < MatthiasM1> All in all the "NAVIT2" idea is that both projects should work better together and that we all might help to boost NAVIT development with donations/fundraising. I'm not the one who has to decide on doing what job with what tool :)
21:17 #navit: < MatthiasM1> So binfile has only a unique style of storing data? So only tile based approach?
21:18 #navit: < tryagain> At the first, it's not that easy to extract address data from OSM. And why should we reinvent the wheel? AFAIK compiling whole planet  with Nominatim takes times more resources than making planet.bin with navit.
21:19 #navit: < tryagain> Indeed there's some index data but i'm unsure if it's currently being used.
21:20 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Yes ofcourse it always good to recycle stuff. Unfortunatly Nominatim isn't that good at all and build as a server and not for embedded devices. Or you just want to get the preprocessed adresses out of it?
21:21 #navit: < tryagain> I think we can switch off searching in binfile completely and invent another map driver which may use Nominatim-derived data. This driver won't be usable to display objects on the map, but will have great search capabilities.
21:21 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Sounds like a plan :)
21:21 #navit: < tryagain> yes, use preprocessed address data from it
21:22 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Maybe we need to define before, if we wan't to search for adresses only (as N. offers region search for POIs etc.)
21:23 #navit: < tryagain> But I'm afraid we won't be able to run Nominatim query angine on WinCE 64Mb device.
21:23 #navit: < tryagain> *engine
21:23 #navit: < MatthiasM1> definitly not. But I have 400MHz commercial GPS driven by OSM data and it works :)
21:24 #navit: < MatthiasM1> if we add an hashtable?
21:24 #navit: < xenos1984> MatthiasM1: what kind of device is that? sounds like a nice thing to play with :)
21:25 #navit:  * MatthiasM1 layback to the rack
21:26 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes and not ;) I have Magellan eXplorist 510, an Medion S3857 and tested the Mio Cyclo 300
21:26 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but they are all very limited :(
21:27 #navit: < xenos1984> nice ;)
21:27 #navit: < MatthiasM1> tried to confince the manufactures to open formats and think of the open community but no way...
21:27 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Maybe Magellan will open but I didn't get any feedback since months :/
21:28 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Anyway, we are talking about open stuff :)
21:29 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I guess to do the right decisions on file format etc. is to get user stories/usecases, doesn't it?
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21:31 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... i think these usecases mainly reduce to a set of design goals: what should the file format be able to do?
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21:31 #navit: < xenos1984> or in other words: what does the user expect, that influences the design of the the file format?
21:31 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Right, but this deaply depends on the requirements? For example the adress search: Should there be autocomplete?
21:33 #navit: < xenos1984> ah, i see - good point
21:33 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Thanks
21:34 #navit: < tryagain> Currently we have something like this in Town search - by highlighting available letters.
21:34 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Yes which is quit nice :)
21:34 #navit: < xenos1984> i would say: if we can implement a feature like this (and as tryagain said, we have it in navit already) and it helps the user, it should be implemented
21:35 #navit: < MatthiasM1> (Sorry for that) But there are so many things to work on :/
21:35 #navit: < MatthiasM1> So what I (personly) miss is an agenda or similar.
21:36 #navit: < MatthiasM1> You know? I don't see the main goal of NAVIT anymore. Maybe because it has changed (as requirements and alternatives have changed) or was never well defined
21:37 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Sorry I mean no harm... (is it the right term?)
21:37 #navit: < xenos1984> no offense, i would say ;)
21:38 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ah :)
21:38 #navit: < xenos1984> i guess i know what you mean - from an outside perspective, it is not really clear in which direction navit is moving, what the current design / improvement goals are, what people work on
21:39 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes, you hit the point
21:40 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Maybe this is just an lack of communication, but I guess it's more than that (where we get back to the architecture stuff etc. )
21:41 #navit: < MatthiasM1> And that's why I personaly expect asking a community/group of people about userstorys would be a good way, to figure out a somewhat "future" design goal and than do a refactoring (or restart if easier). That's the basic idea, where I would happy to assist :)
21:42 #navit: < xenos1984> writing working software is one thing - properly documenting it, designing it, reacting to user request etc. is another one and takes lots of effort and manpower
21:42 #navit:  * MatthiasM1 remembers the OSM wiki :(
21:43 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes that is where the community might/is willing to help
21:43 #navit: < xenos1984> for example, i discovered some of navit's features be reading the source code ;)
21:44 #navit: < MatthiasM1> sorry but that is poor :(
21:44 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I mean, IF you have great feates, SHOW them :D
21:45 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but yes, that are very common Open Source problems and not specific to NAVIT or the development team
21:45 #navit: < xenos1984> indeed, this is my opinion as well - but writing documentation takes time ;)
21:45 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I did a lot of work on the OSM wiki, maybe I can help?
21:46 #navit: < xenos1984> i'm pretty sure you can, especially since you are familiar with C code
21:46 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes but that will take time as your source is full of magic ;)
21:46 #navit: < xenos1984> so one thing that could probably be improved is the documentation of the navit.xml config file
21:47 #navit: < xenos1984> it is ;)
21:47 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I heared it can be splitted into sperated files?
21:47 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, this can be done using xml:include
21:48 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Maybe this should be the very first step (and adopted to all platforms) to make it more intuitive and to exchange settings (think of mapstyles, routing vehicles, ...)
21:48 #navit: < xenos1984> in the source code the possible entries in the config file are defined by some C struct(s), if i remember correctly... attr...someting
21:49 #navit: < xenos1984> and not all of these attr values are properly documented, if i remember correctly
21:49 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but works parsing XML fine on embedded devices?
21:49 #navit: < xenos1984> it does, at least on the ones i used for testing ;)
21:50 #navit: < xenos1984> this is done using libxml
21:50 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hmm expected speed to become a problem (and memory)
21:50 #navit: < tryagain> while navit.xml doesnt reach planet.osm size, it works well ;)
21:50 #navit: < MatthiasM1> maybe I worked to long with AVR xD
21:50 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hehe ;)
21:51 #navit: < xenos1984> about splitting navit.xml: personally i agree, i rather split the file into different types of settings, make it modular
21:51 #navit: < MatthiasM1> But BTW why do you expect, that people tune their navis using an editor?
21:51 #navit: < xenos1984> but not everybody seems to agree with this
21:52 #navit: < tryagain> it's already split somehow for building purposes. Platform-dependend changes are applied at build time with stylesheets.
21:52 #navit: < MatthiasM1> is that the XSLT stuff?
21:52 #navit: < tryagain> yes
21:52 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ahhhh :D
21:53 #navit: < xenos1984> wuah... sounds to me like a slightly overcomplicated way of adding platform dependence...
21:53 #navit: < MatthiasM1> But splitting files because they get hard to handle and offering consumers as one single blob isn't a gentle way :)
21:55 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Maybe this is what I called legacy architecture. It's not bad, really not, but to be hornest, what people today expect is to adjust preferences via GUI.
21:55 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Of course by staing able to tweak manually or exchange/backup/ ... the conf file
21:57 #navit: < xenos1984> my preferred config file architecture would be something like this: a master config file defining which gui to use, which vehicle / routing profile, which map style, general config options such as map orientation, initial coordinates... and several files with map styles, vehicle / routing definitions etc.
21:57 #navit: < xenos1984> and the possibility of saving changes to the master config file
21:57 #navit: < MatthiasM1> +1 I like external ressources :D
21:58 #navit: < xenos1984> do the changes in the GUI, save them into the config file
21:58 #navit: < MatthiasM1> and if you like, the GUI can be build up basing upon the conf attributes
21:58 #navit: < xenos1984> later one may also think about a GUI editor for map styles etc., but for the beginning, only editing the master config via GUI should already be a big plus
22:01 #navit: < MatthiasM1> why reinventing the wheel,when you can use standard map style definitions as MapCSS, Carto, ... you get them  for free :) (plus designers that can already handle that)
22:03 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, i agree - the current navit map style is of course adapted to navit's internal representation of streets, buildings etc., but one could certainly move to something like MapCSS (well, that would mean away from xml...)
22:05 #navit: < MatthiasM1> or adding a general interface and plugins for different definitions (but I would try to get around this approach)
22:07 #navit: < xenos1984> interesting idea... this would allow loading of map styles from different sources...
22:07 #navit: < xenos1984> but i guess map styles must contain some elements that are specific to navit / routing anyway
22:07 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ...and getting chaos as you can't mix definitions :(
22:08 #navit: < xenos1984> for example, navit map styles contain a definition of how the currently calculated route should be displayed
22:08 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I seee....
22:11 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Would be nice, to draw a bigger plan about that as a whole *dreaming*
22:12 #navit: < xenos1984> seems that we have the same dreams ;)
22:12 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I was wondering why Navit never did some cleanup in all this years?
22:13 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I mean yes there are pretty cool things (AR routing, police fleet management, ...) but the usual enduser is not at the roadmap ? :/
22:14 #navit: < xenos1984> i guess most currently active contributors "fear" larger changes because of the high workload of changing large parts of the code, since there are lots if dependencies to satisfy
22:14 #navit: < MatthiasM1> absolutly understandable :/
22:14 #navit: < xenos1984> it's also possible to break something that takes more time to fix that the original change
22:15 #navit: < xenos1984> *than
22:15 #navit: < MatthiasM1> But on the other hand, this offers great opportuneties to bring experiences into the new framework?
22:15 #navit: < xenos1984> and for new contributors it takes time to get familiar with the code
22:16 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, it does, but the threshold of getting these changes started is high...
22:16 #navit: < xenos1984> for example, porting navit to tomtom linux took me a few months of experimenting
22:16 #navit: < xenos1984> and reading lots of source code
22:16 #navit: < MatthiasM1> thats why money might be a good way here?
22:16 #navit: < xenos1984> indeed ;)
22:17 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes if you can work for weeks, this will change speed immeadidly
22:18 #navit: < MatthiasM1> But again, this is just an offert
22:18 #navit: < MatthiasM1> offer
22:20 #navit: < MatthiasM1> not sure if every developer has time/flexibility for months of NAVIT sprint
22:20 #navit: < MatthiasM1> you already had GSOC students?
22:20 #navit: < xenos1984> but this also brings new questions into the game - one needs to define clear design goals to be reached so that people know what to do to get paid ;)
22:20 #navit: < MatthiasM1> which can be/should crowdsourced?
22:20 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... not sure about GSOC...
22:21 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but changing architecture makes only sense with the "seniors" ;) Thats not a job for newbies as me ;)
22:24 #navit: < xenos1984> i guess for students some clearly defined and doable task would be more suitable, such as... design a traffic light warning plugin, to pick one of your suggestions from the wiki
22:24 #navit: < MatthiasM1> So if you asking me, first needs to be clear, what is currently available and where are bottlenecks and bugs (to the coding team). Parallel you can ask a community on what NAVIT should become and collect user stories. The essence of the usecases and current restrictions might form an idea for a new architecture, doesn't it?
22:25 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... makes sense
22:26 #navit: < MatthiasM1> just an idea, not a plan ;)
22:26 #navit:  * MatthiasM1 is a brave student believing in that everything can be well defined ;)
22:28 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but all that has to be discussed in a big circle and within the NAVIT community
22:29 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, and it would be good if one could attract other contributors as well
22:31 #navit: < MatthiasM1> maybe that is also an question of communication. Currently it's hard for externals to see where minor jobs (and even non technical as translations, icon design, map style design, ...) are wanted
22:32 #navit: < xenos1984> for example, i know someone from the OSM meeting in hamburg who designed his own navi hardware - he could be interested as well
22:32 #navit: < xenos1984> translations... i should have a look at navit in estonian...
22:32 #navit: < MatthiasM1> is it like russian or norway?
22:32 #navit: < MatthiasM1> or something completely different?
22:32 #navit: < xenos1984> no, it's similar to finnish
22:33 #navit: < MatthiasM1> BTW May I ask why did you go there? :)
22:35 #navit: < xenos1984> well, i applied for a job here (actually i applied for jobs all over the world - research in physics is a global business and there are only few groups working on my field of research) and i got the job :)
22:35 #navit: < MatthiasM1> OMG
22:35 #navit: < MatthiasM1> I expect all try to get at DAISY
22:35 #navit: < xenos1984> i was already interested in the language and culture years ago, so i was quite happy to get here
22:36 #navit: < xenos1984> you mean DESY in hamburg?
22:36 #navit: < xenos1984> i was there before ;)
22:36 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes
22:36 #navit: < MatthiasM1> lol
22:36 #navit: < xenos1984> it was a great time and a did my PhD there, but the financing for my research group ran out and was not prolonged
22:37 #navit: < MatthiasM1> same problems everywhere ;)
22:37 #navit: < xenos1984> yes ;) but estonia has several programs for foreign researchers :)
22:38 #navit: < xenos1984> well, it poses... other problems...
22:38 #navit: < MatthiasM1> thank god I'm just a master student :)
22:39 #navit: < xenos1984> learning a language with 14 noun cases is one of them, getting along with currently 30cm of snow and -7°C (can get down to -30°C) is another one ;)
22:39 #navit: < MatthiasM1> sh*t
22:39 #navit: < xenos1984> one must love challenges :)
22:40 #navit: < MatthiasM1> indeed, so here you are at NAVIT xD
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22:40 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, this is one of my favourite challenges ;)
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22:40 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hope my "energy" is not frustrating to the more experienced ones ;)
22:42 #navit: < xenos1984> well, at least not for me, although i still consider myself a layman ;)
22:43 #navit: < MatthiasM1> not sure about that ;)
22:44 #navit: < MatthiasM1> maybe a good starting point for me will be to update the NAVIT wiki
22:45 #navit: < xenos1984> i do programming in my spare time, i tought myself and never really had a course on programming or even studied computer science... so i guess that makes me a layman ;) (i looked into knuth's books, though)
22:45 #navit: < xenos1984> yes, this is probably a good idea
22:45 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ..still waiting for confirmation mail :(
22:45 #navit: < xenos1984> since you are familiar with documenting things in the OSM wiki ;)
22:45 #navit: < MatthiasM1> Oh interesting a DIY coder :)
22:46 #navit: < xenos1984> hm... i guess cp15 is busy these days... i think he gets these mails / needs to confirm
22:46 #navit: < xenos1984> yes ;)
22:47 #navit: < tryagain> ...also it might be good idea posting your ideas on trac. Better if they would be not as global as "redesign navit" ;)
22:47 #navit: < tryagain> btw to post on trc you need any openid
22:47 #navit: < MatthiasM1> yes I recognised it this morning :(
22:48 #navit: < MatthiasM1> not sure if splitting up the idea as a good aproach... but will think about it.
22:48 #navit: < xenos1984> well, there are many good, small ideas ;)
22:49 #navit: < MatthiasM1> definitly, but sometimes it makes IMHO sense to talk about more general plans :)
22:51 #navit: < xenos1984> small steps first ;) rome wasn't built in a day ;)
22:51 #navit: < MatthiasM1> hehe
22:51 #navit: < MatthiasM1> but built with the plan of a city and not the idea of just a single house :P
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22:54 #navit: < MatthiasM1> nevertheless even n single steps  are a big step towards :)
22:55 #navit: < xenos1984_> that's true, and also cities grow in several steps ;)
22:55 #navit: < MatthiasM1> There is no reason to hurry up , we can take time
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22:56 #navit: < xenos1984> that's true
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22:59 #navit: < MatthiasM1> ok so now it's time for bed herey
23:00 #navit: < MatthiasM1> cya!
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 01 00:00:22 2012