--- Log opened Wed Apr 26 00:00:42 2017
01:48 #navit: < kcroot> morning
01:48 #navit: < kcroot> kazer: ping
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02:26 #navit: < kcroot> query
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12:01 #navit: < kazer> h ithere
12:01 #navit: < kazer> hi kcroot
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12:49 #navit: < kazer> hey robertp
12:52 #navit: < robertp> hallo
12:54 #navit: < robertp> Ive been trying and trying to get this fcuk uninstall target to work.... If noone cares I am about to drop this feature. A handmade shell script will do much better....
12:54 #navit: < kazer> haha
12:54 #navit: < kazer> well i care too, it would be nice to have it
12:55 #navit: < kazer> where are you currently stuck?
12:58 #navit: < kazer> btw, not as pretty as your board but I made some tangible progress on my electronics : https://cloud.kazer.org/index.php/s/avzShPM0vMqPBhJ
13:15 #navit: < robertp> I am stuck at deleting empty folders and checking if they are empty. The docs seem to be some kind of outdated.
13:17 #navit: < robertp> I am using cmake 3.0.2 on Ubuntu 16.04 at my vm
13:21 #navit: < robertp> your electronics look good. how did you make the pcb, kazer?
13:23 #navit: < robertp> the print looks a bit misaligned o.O
13:34 #navit: < kazer> i used a cnc engraving machine to mill the pcb, and a laser cutter to etch the component placement. The print is indeed a bit misaligned, it was my first attempt :)
13:35 #navit: < robertp> do you also have a pic of the copper side?
13:35 #navit: < kazer> you can see that i really fucked up my settings because the shapes are not consistent :) my corner speed was too high and i had some jitter
13:35 #navit: < kazer> sure hang on
13:37 #navit: < kazer> https://cloud.kazer.org/index.php/s/H7gzZKkmD5gVO5x
13:38 #navit: < kazer> i used a v-shaped carving tool for the pcb. Pro : much more difficult to break. Con : end result is a bit less pleasant, aestetically
13:38 #navit: < kazer> last time i used a small routing bit instead. Tracks edges were sharper, but these break really, really easily
13:40 #navit: < robertp> I'd solder all pins of the arduino for mechanical stability. If you mount that in your car, that will break soon.
13:40 #navit: < kazer> thanks, that's useful advice
13:40 #navit: < kazer> any comment welcome btw, i'm still new to this
13:40 #navit: < kazer> also the arduino is mounted on a riser on this board, as it's the first prototype
13:42 #navit: < kazer> https://cloud.kazer.org/index.php/s/D0PTMkBPKXC10A3
13:43 #navit: < kazer> btw : next i am going to need a board to switch between audio sources. Have you done that before?
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13:47 #navit: < robertp> what kind of source? for analog audio signals use relais, for (digital) i2c audio i2c-audio-ics
13:48 #navit: < kazer> analog yeah. I am going to need 4 sources (raspberry, bluetooth, FM, line in)
13:53 #navit: < robertp> I'd use a on/off relay for every channel and take care that only one is active at a time to prevent output latchup of the source (outputs should be short-circuit-safe but I wouldnt rely on that assumption)
13:54 #navit: < robertp> There were some analog-switch-IC for analog TVs in the past but they are very rare and horribly expensive
14:10 #navit: < kazer> thanks!
14:16 #navit: < kazer> also looks like i'd want non-latching relay, correct?
14:28 #navit: < robertp> No, latchup or latch-up is a reaction of a cmos output to inductive load. This leads to direct connection of the power and ground of the cmos-output which lets the silicon melt. and smoke
14:29 #navit: < robertp> have to google what latching relay are....
14:29 #navit: < kazer> sounds bad :) but this is different from latching / non-latching relays right?
14:30 #navit: < kazer> from what i gather a latching relay will hold its current position until toggled, where a non latching relay will revert to the NC state when the coil looses power
14:30 #navit: < robertp> yes, that latch-up has nothing to do with relays
14:30 #navit: < robertp> that depends on your relay driver technique
14:31 #navit: < kazer> i was thinking of driving the relays with an arduino
14:31 #navit: < kazer> like i do currently to enable the car amp
14:48 #navit: < kazer> how about these? http://pccomponents.com/datasheets/PANA-TQ2.PDF the tq2-5v
14:58 #navit: < robertp> So cheap standard automotive relays will do
14:58 #navit: < robertp> do you have schematics of your pcb?
14:59 #navit: < robertp> you should.... would you mind sharing?
15:00 #navit: < kazer> for the power board? yeah sure. For the audio not yet, will work on it in the next days
15:00 #navit: < kazer> just ordered a bunch of tq2-5v, will try them
15:00 #navit: < kazer> do you use kicad?
15:09 #navit: < robertp> No I use Eagle and Altium (CircuitMaker)
15:09 #navit: < kazer> ok
15:09 #navit: < kazer> i'll push the pcb and schematics to github today
15:11 #navit: < kazer> in the meantime : https://cloud.kazer.org/index.php/s/NbraDEwpsS07t2m
15:11 #navit: < kazer> any comments are welcome, so shoot :)
15:13 #navit: < robertp> So better hide savely. O.o
15:13 #navit: < robertp> What values do the resistors at the Ardiuni IOs have?
15:19 #navit: < kazer> r1 = 33k, r2 = 10k
15:19 #navit: < kazer> the voltage divider on BATT is meant to monitor battery level, and shutdown the pi if battery goes low
15:20 #navit: < kazer> the voltage divider on IGNITION is meant to power on the pi when starting, and giving it some time to cleanly shut down when turning the engine off
15:22 #navit: < robertp> I'd recommend R1 47k, R2 22k and R3 (from R1/R2 in series to the arduino io) also 47k and a 22nF capacitor parallel to R2. The protection diodes on the arduino can be massacred with up to 1mA continously
15:23 #navit: < robertp> So the series resistor from ~12V to the Arduino is about 100k. That protects the IC from voltages up to 1000V.
15:24 #navit: < robertp> In noisy automotive environments voltages to 1000V can occur.
15:25 #navit: < robertp> The capacitor takes care about needle pikes
15:26 #navit: < kazer> thanks!
15:27 #navit: < kazer> mm, 47k/22k gives 5.1V at 16V input. Isn't it a bit much?
15:28 #navit: < robertp> the  arduino has diodes from IO to VCC
15:28 #navit: < kazer> so it's safe to provide, say, 5.5V on an input, we will just read it as 5v?
15:29 #navit: < robertp> so everything above 5.6V will be lead to vcc
15:29 #navit: < kazer> ok thanks!
15:29 #navit: < robertp> yes
15:29 #navit: < robertp> but take care about the current. giving the protection diodes more than 1mA might harm the arduino
15:30 #navit: < robertp> thats why i recommend 2x 47k in series
15:31 #navit: < robertp> for adc use reduce the R2 of the divider to adjust the operating range
15:31 #navit: < kazer> adc?
15:32 #navit: < robertp> analog digital converter
15:35 #navit: < kazer> ah, thanks
15:35 #navit: < robertp> You read the analog voltages, don't you?
15:36 #navit: < kazer> yes correct
15:36 #navit: < kazer> so something like this? https://cloud.kazer.org/index.php/s/EJgoLRYtwqSFIuV
15:37 #navit: < robertp> almost
15:37 #navit: < robertp> use ceramic capacitors or foil caps
15:37 #navit: < kazer> so, unpolarized?
15:37 #navit: < robertp> electrolytic caps are way too slow
15:39 #navit: < robertp> yes
15:40 #navit: < kazer> https://cloud.kazer.org/index.php/s/PTCYvephe9UEVDq ?
15:46 #navit: < robertp> ok. Next: You are also missing a diode antiparallel to the relay coil
15:46 #navit: < kazer> indeed thanks
15:46 #navit: < kazer> i noticed it while looking into relays earlier
15:46 #navit: < robertp> the induction spark of the coil will latch-up ( ;) )  your MOSFET
15:48 #navit: < kazer> ha yeah :)
15:49 #navit: < kazer> like this? https://cloud.kazer.org/index.php/s/ZG3l0LA4OmizcRW
15:49 #navit: < kazer> any advice on the part itself?
15:49 #navit: < robertp> where is your voltage regulator? It is very important, too
15:50 #navit: < kazer> i am using a ubec for that, it's the 4 pins on the top right corner (j9-j11)
15:50 #navit: < kazer> i will have to add a part to my library
15:52 #navit: < robertp> So obviously no over voltage and short circuit protection?
15:53 #navit: < kazer> i *believe* that it is handled by the ubec
15:56 #navit: < robertp> can you link a schematic?
15:57 #navit: < kazer> sure
16:02 #navit: < kazer> mmm. they are hard to find it seems. But the specs for the ones i have say that it has over current and reversed pins protection. Nothing about over voltage or short circuit though
16:04 #navit: < kazer> this seems close : https://www.monolithicpower.com/Products/Product-Detail/238/Step-down(Buck)/SwitchingRegulators/DC-DCPowerConversion/Converters/MP2307
16:04 #navit: < robertp> short circuit protection can be done with a simple fuse
16:05 #navit: < kazer> adding a fuse sounds like a good idea indeed
16:05 #navit: < kazer> you mentioned ceramic capacitors earlier. Should I use -|(- instead of -||- in my schematics?
16:07 #navit: < robertp> The schematic symbol SHOULD match the footprint. So use -|(- for electrolytics and -||- for ceramics or foil or....
16:07 #navit: < kazer> yep i want them to match :)
16:07 #navit: < kazer> in the schematics i shared they use -|(- for ceramics
16:08 #navit: < kazer> ( C1 )
16:08 #navit: < robertp> seems wrong ;)
16:08 #navit: < kazer> ok cool
16:11 #navit: < robertp> for over voltage protection use a fuse (we mentioned already) and a TVS (i use P1,5KE18A in automotive envs) from the fuse to ground
16:12 #navit: < kazer> will add that, thanks!
16:12 #navit: < robertp> http://www.rfwireless-world.com/ApplicationNotes/TVS-diode.html
16:13 #navit: < kazer> wait, aren't fuse protecting from over current rather than over voltage?
16:13 #navit: < robertp> Luke, the TVS-site reading you must....
16:14 #navit: < kazer> so the fuse and the tvs diode would go from batt to ground, not 5v to ground, correct?
16:14 #navit: < kazer> haha ok
16:14 #navit: < robertp> the tvs leads current to ground if voltage exceeds the value printed on the plastic
16:15 #navit: < robertp>  if there was a fuse, the fuse would now break and stop the current.
16:15 #navit: < kazer> so i should protect the 5v circuit, right? because the batt voltage can fluctuate
16:16 #navit: < kazer> mmm.. but the ubec should already guarantee a 5v output
16:16 #navit: < robertp> If there wasnt a fuse the TVS woul break and directly connect 12V to GND. If there is a thin cable from the battery to the circuit, it will play fuse
16:16 #navit: < robertp> is ubec designed for use in automotive environments?
16:17 #navit: < robertp> If so: lean back and enjoy
16:17 #navit: < robertp> if not, back to fuse and TVS
16:18 #navit: < kazer> it's mostly used for rc, like quadcopters where you power the electronics via some powerful batteries. I have used them with 4S, 5000mAh batteries for example
16:20 #navit: < robertp> Ok. But in your car is a lot of electrical noise. The relays, the alternator and electric motors spread a bunch of high voltage peaks over the 12V line. You cant compare that to LIPO cells of a RC thing
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16:21 #navit: < kazer> so to be safe, i should protect the circuit with fuse and tvs between bat and ground, with a tvs rated for .. 14V?
16:23 #navit: < robertp> That depend on the VinMax of your voltage regulator
16:23 #navit: < robertp> Most discrete Vregs can be used with up to 30V
16:23 #navit: < robertp> So there I use a TVS with 18V
16:24 #navit: < kazer> the ubec should accept up to 26V
16:24 #navit: < robertp> You should use the TVS which is only used if such an evil peak occurs
16:25 #navit: < robertp> in my car 14,8V are OK, so 15V would be too close.
16:25 #navit: < robertp> that would harm the TVS
16:26 #navit: < kazer> makes sense. 18V then
16:27 #navit: < kazer> like this? https://cloud.kazer.org/index.php/s/nocDecheFBPSinW
16:28 #navit: < robertp> No.
16:28 #navit: < kazer> doh
16:29 #navit: < kazer> re-reading the tvs page
16:29 #navit: < robertp> The fuse in series and then the TVS parallel
16:29 #navit: < robertp> like a voltage divider
16:34 #navit: < kazer> updated the schematics, same link as before. Correct?
16:37 #navit: < robertp> Almost
16:38 #navit: < robertp> Use a unidirectional TVS
16:38 #navit: < robertp> Cathode pointing to the fuse
16:38 #navit: < kazer> ok thanks
16:42 #navit: < kazer> updated
16:46 #navit: < robertp> very good.
16:47 #navit: < kazer> sweet. Anything else you see?
16:48 #navit: < robertp> What does J5 do?
16:49 #navit: < kazer> it's the connector to the pi. pin 1 is GND, pin 2 is 5V, pin 3 is a signal from the pi to power on the car amp
16:50 #navit: < robertp> Ah... the relay switches the AMP?
16:50 #navit: < kazer> yes correct
16:51 #navit: < kazer> i need to do a few tests, as the pi might be a pull down instead of a pullup (or the opposite, i'm always confused)
16:51 #navit: < kazer> to switch the amp on, i just need to provide power to the cable labelled "antenna"
16:52 #navit: < kazer> (that's its name on the wiring harness)
16:52 #navit: < robertp> I've seen another thing: The LED connected to 12V has the same series resistor like the one at 5V.
16:52 #navit: < kazer> i have to admit that i loosely spec'ed the resistors here :)
16:53 #navit: < robertp> haha. Its always the same. Everywhere. :D
16:53 #navit: < kazer> haha
16:53 #navit: < kazer> glad to know that i'm not alone :)
16:53 #navit: < kazer> does it matter much?
16:53 #navit: < robertp> Ive designed a board where I used DIP swicthes.
16:54 #navit: < robertp> http://excelcell.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008800045588/pdtl/DIP-digital/1059992751/Through-Hole-Dip-Switch.htm?state_filt=CN_CNFUJ??
16:54 #navit: < robertp> like this one
16:55 #navit: < robertp> I placed them at the end of the pcb to be able to access the through holes in the housing
16:55 #navit: < robertp> But a fellow soldered them and I realized that i rotated them
16:55 #navit: < robertp> to I couldnt access them through the holes
16:56 #navit: < robertp> To your LEDs
16:56 #navit: < robertp> they have a standard forward current and the resistor should be used to adjust the current and the brightness
16:57 #navit: < kazer> they are merely troubleshooting indicators in my case. I do not want them to be visible when the box is closed, too much distraction
16:57 #navit: < robertp> If you exceed the forward current the led will shine very bright but probably very short
16:57 #navit: < robertp> :D
16:57 #navit: < kazer> so i don't need them to be bright, and should just bump the R value?
16:57 #navit: < robertp> So dont solder them
16:58 #navit: < robertp> I have to go
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 27 00:00:44 2017